Could the widespread belief in God be evidence that he doesn't exist?

by DT 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • DT
    DT

    First of all, I'm an agnostic and don't know if there is a God or not. However, I do think it possible to intelligently review the evidence and come to some reasonable conclusions, even if we can't have absolute certainty. It's a big topic, so I'll just discuss the main reason that many people believe in God. It often comes down to a hunch. People have a gut feeling that there must be a God. So for many people, their belief in God is based on the fact that many people believe in God. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or trying to trivialise this. Rather, I think it is an important argument that needs to be discussed seriously.

    If there is a God, it seems likely that we would be created with a kind of inborn belief in him, so this could be taken as evidence of his existence. On the other hand, this evidence would lose much of it's force if the theory of evolution made the same prediction. It's hard to analyse the survival value of believing in God, but a good argument can be made that there is a survival benefit to attributing some kind of intelligent cause to things that have an unknown cause. So if someone hears a rustling of leaves and assumes that it is caused by a predator or enemy, he will have a survival advantage, even if he is wrong most of the time. If natural selection over a long period of time selects for this way of thinking, then it is easy to see how belief in God as an intelligent cause for unexplained events could develop.

    It might seem hopeless to decide which scenario best explains the evidence if they both predict the same thing. However, there are some differences in the details. The common gut feeling that there is a God is very powerful, but it can be overcome and it also varies from person to person. This is consistent with evolutionary theory, but it is not quite consistent with what we might reasonably expect if we were created by a loving God. If there is a God, he could have made this gut feeling absolute so we wouldn't have to waste time debating a certainty. Or he could have given us clear supplemental evidence that he exists. Neither is the case.

    If there is a God. I would expect that he would not only give convincing evidence of his existence, but would also design us with the ability to properly understand and visualise the nature of the universe. If our gut feeling in the existence of God was just a consequence of a natural tendency to misunderstand the workings of the universe, then I would consider that to be strong evidence for the nonexistence of God (at least of a loving and wise God).

    The fact is that our natural tendency to attribute an intelligent cause to unexplained things offers survival benefits, but greatly hinders us in our efforts to understand ourselves and the universe. This fact is obscured somewhat by modern science. We have learned that at least most of the workings of the universe have natural explanations. In the past, it was common to assume these were the result of supernatural causes. Think of all the reports of demon possession in the Bible. Before people understood illnesses and even minor maladies, they often assumed these were the result of demon possession. This natural tendency is pervasive. For example, Kepler discovered some mathematical laws of planetary motion. They described what happened, but not how it happened, so many believed that angels moved the planets according to these laws. Newton eventually discovered that a mathematically precise description of gravity could account for these observed motions, so the unnecessary hypothesis of planet moving angels was abandoned. I view this natural human tendency to be more consistent with the forces of evolution then with the hypothesis of a wise and loving God. Also consider how poorly equipped we are to comprehend and visualise advanced scientific ideas like relativity, quantum physics, extra or curved dimensions, etc. These abilities wouldn't have provided any survival benefits (until recently, at least) so it's not surprising that we don't have them. If we were created, I would expect that we would be better prepared.

    I know this is just a brief review of an important topic, but I would like to hear your thoughts.

  • MissingLink
    MissingLink

    Thought provoking stuff. I never considered that.

    But is belief in god a heritable trait? If 2 athiests reproduce and 2 worshipers reproduce and the children are raised outside their parent influence - would the athiest child be less likely than the worshiper's child to have a "feeling" that there is a god?

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    I know this is just a brief review of an important topic, but I would like to hear your thoughts.

    You make a good post, I enjoy it. I say question everything.

    I dont know if there is a God or not. I consider myself agnostic. I find myself rooting for belief in a God. That is my bias.

    I think our eye is very complicated and have a hard time believing it evolved. Also when I think of it requiring a male and a female uniting together to produce life, I find that very difficult to believe that sexual reproductions among humans evolved.

    The reading I have done puts the mathimatical probibilities for these two issues to have evolved off the charts and as I process the data it would take more faith for me to believe in evolution than intelligent design.

    Still I doubt the biblical God and question there being a God. But if I have to cash in my chips today, I will have to put them on the side of intelligent design which is practically saying God.

    Also, I am a detention officer and work with mentally disturbed people from time to time.

    I am not convinced from my work in the labatory, hands on with these people that they are not demon possessed both by talking with them and seeing the chemical cocktails that the doctors prescribe them. The inmates that we cut off the wall end up taking some pretty off the wall dossages of chemicals to kill or control whatever malfunction or demon they have possesing them.

    They end up doing the thorozine shuffle in the twilight zone. If there is a demon whispering in their ear they are so doped up and clouded and slowed down that the inmates cant move with all the dope in them. And the inmates that I have talked to that get doped up, I have talked with them before the drugs and they deffintiely come from and entertain the dark side.

    So I am not convinced modern psychiatry in the field has proven that disturbed people are not demon possesed.

    Still I doubt demons. But I'm not going to live my life and entertain the thoughts of those who act like they may be possessed do.

    The best I can come up with today. The bible is not the word of God. The bible is man trying to describe what he sees, man trying to describe the unknowable. PLus the bible is man trying to get 10% out of the sheep. The bible was written and is peddled by a group of men that do not want to do physical labor.

    I suspect we are dealing with entities in another dimension who are interfacing with us. Thats my favorite theorie. And we are probably spirits who have materialized here on earth. Because the material world is where the action is.

    We spirits find it very entertaing to materialize here and deny ourselves any memory of our previous existence. The way we exist here not knowing makes earth sort of an amusement park.

    If we are eternal, everlasting beings. than 75 years could be likened to a day at Cedar point or Disney World or Universal Studios.

    If we all knew we were sons of God all along, where would the drama come from? Where would the entertainment come from? We left peace, security, paradise, nirvana back home before we took this trip to earth because we were bored and had to get out of the house.

    Just like the biblical Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit and stir things up because paradise gets boring.

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    At one time, all men thought and believed the world was flat and yet in time they learned the truth and soon realized their believe system was in error. While I do believe in a multi-dimension reality of physical and spirit. I do not believe in an all powerful god who expects worship. I think the best way that would be summed up for me, is to ask if spirits worship the President of the United States? In that they do not see a leader on the physical side, any more so then a leader exist on the spiritual side. Leadership, etc, those are just products of people trying to find order in a world that is only disorganized in their mind set and not reality.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,

    "If there is a God. I would expect that he would not only give convincing evidence of his existence"

    Yes I believe we have it. See here

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter

    "but would also design us with the ability to properly understand and visualise the nature of the universe."

    Well in many ways we can't do that because we aren't God and do not have His abilities. How can you understand the limits of time and space until you have existed outside them? That said, we can appreciate its God-like design because we are made in the image of God.

    Genesis 1:25-27 (New International Version)

    25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

    26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    27 So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.

    Notice the first reference in the Bible to God being plural but singular too ;) I am sure the WTO has a perfectly rational explanation for that as well!

    "(at least of a loving and wise God)"

    Well, although it is hard for most ex-JWs or non-Christians, I believe the Bible is true when it says God is love. On the second point, the Bible has much to say on the wisdom of God if you check it out, but logically speaking, if God created us and the whole universe, He must be far wiser than anything in it.

    My own feeling is that deep down we do not misunderstand the universe or the existence of God. Most polls still point to the majority of people believing that God exists. However, that alone will not get you into His Kingdom.

    Regards,
    Stephen

  • inkling
    inkling
    I think our eye is very complicated and have a hard time believing it evolved.

    I'm assuming you have read the many plausible explanations offered by evolutionists,
    detailing the possible step-by-step progression from a light-sensitive cell all the
    way to the current camera-like model?

    It's not like "they" don't HAVE an answer to your issue. What about the evolutionary
    model of the eye is not convincing to you?

    [inkling]

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    BRAVO! Well said DT.

    I appreciated your point about god creating us with the ability to understand the nature of the universe. Thiests say "His ways are higher" but as usual, proof is lacking in such statements. I remember while studying the "Revelation Climax" it was explained that heaven with it's pearly gates was described as such because in this way, humans could understand heavens splendor. The other, more likely arguement is that the human writers of the bible wanted to make heaven appear great and used precious jewels to describe heaven, because that was the best they could do. Either way, if god exisits, he sure likes to confuse mankind with vaguery.

    I have an issue with how god talks to us. He likes to play games and seems pretty choosy if you listen to thiests. "He speaks to me through_______" It just depends on the thiest, although they will insist they are correct. Whether it be through the bible or divine revelation, god creates more problems then he solves. (or Allah, depending on what part of the world you are in. Muslims have just as much a credible claim to communication with god as Christians.)

    I am a demanding person. Too many people are in real need of help, help that only a divine being can give. Yet it seems god is to busy seeing if there is faith in the world and making sure we all realize the next world is better then this one. Too bad that doesn't help the starving millions, and the unjustly treated of the world. I think a pragmatic view of god is needed. Forget all the theology and that which divides. Don't put us on a planet and leave billions to suffer while you are preening for worshipers. Be worthy of worship, and god will surely be worshipped.

    But as the evidence shows he doesn't exist, thats not a real worry I have.

  • Must obey!
    Must obey!

    Why does everyone keep spelling THEIST wrong?

    I completely understand why people struggle to believe in God because where has he been for thousands of years? Like the Dalai Lama said "If there is a God, he appears to be sleeping at the other end of the universe".

    But at the same time the materialist/evolutionary explanations for the existence of matter and life are entirely unsatisfactory also.

    Both require leaps of faith.

    At the end of the day, there is some great mystery and answer to it all, and we are simply not in a position to answer it because we don't have all the jigsaw pieces yet. Atheism and biblical fundamentalism are both logically indefensible positions when you think about it, flip sides of the same arrogant and unreasonable coin.

    It is ridiculous to say that the evidence says God doesn't exist Alltimejeff. That is just projecting the same kind of anthropomorphistic expectations onto what we imagine God must demonstrate or do for us to believe in him. It's a rather bratish attitude to reject a higher beings existence just because he hasn't been in our neck of the woods for a while. The irony of this attitude is that evolutionists are happy to accept countless millions of years for things to myseriously (and without any scientific proof) have "evolved" but they reject the idea of a Creator just because no one has seen any miracles for hundreds of years. Just because God is silent and hasn't performed miracles for millennia (if ever) doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Logically all we could reasonably say in such a situation is that the absence of direct revelatory proof of his existence for so long indicates that he doesn't seem to care or be interested in us at the present time (and for millennia), not that he absolutely doesn't exist. It's rather arrogant to demand that God must keep performing special miracles to prove to every sceptical generation that he exists, just as it's arrogant for fundamentalist Christians to expect us to believe God made everything in 7 literal days.

    We just don't really know enough to say if there is a God or there isn't. My personal view is that the sheer mathematical improbability of life in all its abundance and variety having come about through blind chance indicates there most likely is some unfathomably powerful and stupendous design/mind behind it all, way beyond our comprehension. But apart from that, agnosticism/suspension of belief seems the only rational and reasonable explanation at this point in our search for the truth.

  • zack
    zack

    Great topic. But. OK, PLEASE TAKE THE WHOLE BLIND CHANCE argument out of the evolution scenario, please. Are the odds great of amino acids forming proteins

    and developing into cells, etc.... Sure. But the odds are great that anyone will win the lottery and yet many people do. I want to beleive in God, but the God of the Bible

    is not a wonderful character and frankly, not as advertised to be as his great defenders claim.

    As wonderful as our bodies are ( including our eyes) they sure have some fantastic shortcomings. If our bodies were cars designed and produced by an automobile

    company, then the competition would have eaten their lunch long ago.

    And why does God need defending, anyway?

  • besty
    besty
    My personal view is that the sheer mathematical improbability of life in all its abundance and variety having come about through blind chance indicates there most likely is some unfathomably powerful and stupendous design/mind behind it all, way beyond our comprehension.

    Blind chance is not the explanation offered by, for example , Darwin, or more recently expanded on by Dawkins. The two competing concepts are ID (God if you like) and natural selection.

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