Romans 8

confused and lost

I have just finished reading the book of Romans and I have a question ? A person cannot please God unless he is controlled by the spirit.(Rom 8:8,9) Nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (Rom 8:13) The next verse (v14) then tells us that ALL who are led by Gods spirit are Gods sons.In fact they are adopted as his children.However,according to the WTS , these verses only apply to the annointed.So,my question is this.If only the annointed are led by Gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ? If in fact ALL christians are led by Gods spirit then ALL christians are Gods sons so then ALL christians are co-heirs with Christ.This makes the "144,000" kind of redundant.Also, since John in 1John 3 : 10 makes a distinction between the "children of God" and "the children of the devil" does this mean that because the "other sheep" are not adopted as Gods children they must of neccessity be children of the devil, since there are only 2 classes of children mentioned by John and also by Jesus (John 8:42 - 47)The more I read the Bible apart from WTS publications the more confusion I uncover in WTS teachings.

garybuss

Watch Tower says the "other sheep" are not identified until AFTER the great tribulation starts and the "great crowd" is not identified until the great tribulation ends, so your question might be a non issue in the context of current Watch Tower speculation.

mouthy

Romans was the most revealing truth to me ....It tells us that when we come to Christ we are NOT condemned.(Romans 8:1)
It is where I first found out who the two flocks are the Jews, & Gentiles
Then chaprer 4: 13 told us that the law wasnt going to save us.
Then learning that the Holy Spirit is our teacher helped me immensly
Romans 5:3 showed me it was into our hearts Christ came....

Then when I read 8:27 I saw where it was Hearts he was examing NOT my TIME SHEET!

Then 8:20 we are PREDESTINED???? Hey !!!!that was differant from what I was taught by "mother"(WT)
Then 10: 1 in MY opinion it could have been speaking of us as Jehovahs Witnesses
"MY Hearts desire & prayer is for the JW's ( I know it says Israelites)For I can testify about them that they are zealous for GOD BUT their zeal is not based on knowledge ."........read on it is about us as JWS IN MY OPINION!!!!!

Yes I agree it can open your mind ..... reading without the WT

CHILD

Reading the bible itself without the Watchtower lens reveals the lies we've been taught. The book of Romans is an eye opener indeed!

Maddie

Yes it all seems so clear once the veil of the WT has been removed.

Maddie

Narkissos

Romans, chapter 8 in particular, is probably one of the main exit doors from the WT. I will never forget a certain reading of this passage over 20 years ago -- right in a Bethel office.

I have often thought, since, that the revelatory force of this text is tremendously increased by the WT doctrine. An irony in itself.

snowbird

Reading Romans and the Gospel of John certainly opened the door for me, and I walked right out of it.

Hallelujah!!!

Sylvia

Xavier1

I hope that God continue to help you and give you his holy spirit. You made the good choise reading Roman 8 and John 8 also.

God bless you

Amitiés

Xavier

OnTheWayOut

Usually, Blondie will come into the discussion and answer the initial question with
a WT quote. I don't have that available to me today, but I would say that the quote
will say that other sheep are "adopted" or "included by extension" or some other doctrinal
gymnastic term. They may have said that at the time of the writing of the New Testament,
all Christians were invited to be anointed, so the awkward inconvenience of the wording
is caused by that.

No matter what, it's ridiculous to say that God (it is HIS word) wasn't clear and that it has
to be explained in some goofy way.

JosephMalik

I have just finished reading the book of Romans and I have a question ? A person cannot please God unless he is controlled by the spirit.(Rom 8:8,9) Nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (Rom 8:13)

Confused and lost,

I have been harping on this for some time but it does not seem to sink in. Who are these Romans Paul is addressing? Jews who believed in Christ but were still keeping the Law for salvation. They cannot please God unless they are controlled by the spirit which means what? The OT scriptures that teach some day God will provide a replacement for the old Law covenant with a new and better covenant for salvation. Eventually the book of Hebrews would bring such verses out and apply them point blank. The same thing goes for the misdeeds of the body which were serviced by the animal sacrifices and other provisions of this Law. It would no longer serve this purpose and such misdeeds would now be covered by the blood of Christ. This was the spirit in which they should now live.

You bring out: The next verse (v14) then tells us that ALL who are led by Gods spirit are Gods sons. In fact they are adopted as his children.

Peter made the same arguments in his letters regarding this sacrifice. There is no such thing as a limit on how many can be let by God’s spirit. They just want to restrict this number to control and enslave you and others to serve them. In reality they ignore everyone else trying to do this "anointed" thing as they call it and will not listen to them. They put themselves above all such spirit.

You said: So, my question is this. If only the anointed are led by Gods spirit, whose spirit leads the "other sheep"? If in fact ALL Christians are led by Gods spirit then ALL Christians are Gods sons so then ALL Christians are co-heirs with Christ. This makes the "144,000" kind of redundant.

True. However the number 144,000 is simply a way to symbolize this core of believers who will assist Christ is His kingdom administration. This is because Christ chooses those who belongs to Him and not us. Like the apostles for instance: John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. We may want to be such but not everyone claiming to be Christian really is. Some are evil slaves and will be identified as such when He returns. So this number 144,000 eliminates the faithful from the evil ones. Such evil ones will face judgment using other criteria established for the judgment of the rest of the world to which they will be relegated. This will be based on their behavior and what they really were as human beings not their religious beliefs.

You said: Also, since John in 1John 3 : 10 makes a distinction between the "children of God" and "the children of the devil" does this mean that because the "other sheep" are not adopted as Gods children they must of necessity be children of the devil, since there are only 2 classes of children mentioned by John and also by Jesus (John 8:42 - 47)

You should not confuse "other sheep" with "sheep." The other sheep are non-Jews that share in this same covenant with the chosen Jews while sheep is used for all mankind in general from which the kingdom will also draw to make up its final population. They will be assigned to the heirs to bring them to the knowledge and justification they already have.

By the time John wrote this struggle had matured to the point that Christians were trying to kill Christians over Law. And more complex teaching had crept into the faith by Jewish and Gentile believers both as detailed also in 1 Cor. So John could now speak of children of the devil more openly and give specific examples of how to identify them the way Paul did. This is simply another way to show that a faithful and evil slave existed in the faith and we should be aware of it. This was also visible among the Jews to whom Jesus ministered.

Joseph

P.S. If you read Romans very carefully you will be able to identify by the wording and context where Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians and where he is addressing the Gentile ones in Rome.

JM

Romans 8

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