Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to start over?

DT

"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." -Matthew 24:14 What is the good news? I used to think that it was that Jesus became king in 1914 and that he would destroy this system before the generation that saw 1914 passed away. Well, there have been a few changes since then. Now they have another new understanding of the word generation. It only makes sense that the good news has to be true. How could people be judged unrighteous for not embracing a lie? Even if this new understanding were true, they would have to preach it to the entire world before the end could come. Their earlier efforts could hardly count towards fulfilling Matthew 24:14 if they weren't preaching the real good news of the kingdom. If they get new light in the future, then they would have to start all over again. No wonder the end hasn't come yet! Most of us know that the 1914 prophecy is based on faulty chronology. If I were still a witness, I think I would wait until they got that straightened out before I bothered pounding on any more doors.

XOCO

1st of all i would like to say welcome to JWD DT

I think the reason why they have to start all over b/c they need to keep the Pubs. thinking that the end is commin' and keep on selling mags and tracks sayin' that false religion is near and crap. i remember in the old awake (from way back in the day) mags on the 1st page right after the cover it would say something about te 1914 generation but the new mags say nothing about the 1914 generation. i think u can look this up at http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com

XOCO

bigmouth

Welcome DT and I have to laugh! That is a very good observation.

Of course you can apply the same reasoning to any one of a multitude of flip flops over 130 years. Belief in any of things could make you an apostate overnight.

JW's bear almost no resemblance to C T Russell's religion that was approved by God in 1919!

And to XOCO. You're correct. Nov 1995 I think. I showed this to two visiting elders in 2005 and they were completely oblivious to the change.

XOCO

And to XOCO. You're correct. Nov 1995 I think. I showed this to two visiting elders in 2005 and they were completely oblivious to the change.

I know bigmouth i have to find one of those old awake mags and show to someone and explain to me about it and why the urge to change the date around like germanxjw had posted earlier?

XOCO (An inquiring mind that wants to know)

My Struggle

I made this post a few days ago...

Over the past month I have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on JW. The point was to have someone there to teach the members JW doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them. At the end of the series I gave the members the outline below. It is intended to serve as a guideline for them when JW come to the door. It is centered around three scriptures (Matt. 24:14; Colossians 1:13,14; & Luke 24:47) to create a skeleton of the Christian gospel. I wanted to get some opinions on the outline. Keep in mind that it is not practical for the discussion to be too long, because I waned something of reasonable length that could be used in one setting. Critique away……

"Preaching the gospel to Jehovah’s Witnesses"

1. You believe that Jesus commissioned you at Matt. 24:14 to "preach this good news of the kingdom"?

-The answer will be ‘yes’.

-Matt 24:14 reads, " 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." *

- The New World Translation uses "good news" in place of "gospel". This is not a significant change because they mean the same thing, but it is something to be aware of.

2. What do you believe that "the good news of the kingdom is"?

-JW doctrine teaches them that this is Christ rulership in heaven, but only since the year 1914. Here is their doctrine:**

***w5510/15p.623TheTriumphantMessageof"TheKingdom"***Consequently the kingdom about which this good news would be preached is the kingdom with Jesus Christ present in it in power, on his throne of active rulership. The Kingdom is, not one yet to be set up, but one now established….God’s scheduled time to establish that heavenly kingdom with his Son on the throne was at the end of the "appointed times of the nations," or 2,520 years from when the kingdom of Jerusalem in the land of Judah was desolated in early autumn or in the seventh Jewish month of the year 607 B.C. Those seven "appointed times of the nations" ended in the early autumn of 1914, about October 1. Before then the "good news" of the established kingdom could not be preached.

-With the J.W. (Jehovah’s Witnesses) that may come to your door there is great variance in how well educated they are in the doctrine of the JW church. They may be well versed or they may not even be able to answer questions about core doctrines, like the one questioned here, as they may have not have been a JW long before they happened to arrive at your door. So, always be prepared for a blank stare or some ‘made up’ answer that is not in line with official JW doctrine. However, I will always give you the official JW church doctrine w/ references so they can look it up for themselves if any confusion occurs.

3. Here I would agree with the JW that Jesus is now in power in heaven, and would tell them that all Christians would agree on the truth of Matt.28:18. I would ask to look at that scripture in their bible, which reads… . 18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (emphasis added)

4. After reading the scripture I would then ask, "If Jesus said ‘all authority has been given’ then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?" If his authority was to be given to Jesus in 1914, then why did the scripture not say ‘all authority will be given’?

- There is no official church doctrine on why the scripture is worded the way it is, so the response will be widely varied.

- Try to keep them on task by reminding them that their own publication (quoted above in point number two) says that ‘the kingdom’ in Matt. 24:14 is a heavenly one with Christ ruling, which if true, according to Matt. 28:18, means that he has been ruling since the time he spoke those words.

5. Ask them to further read about Jesus kingdom in Colossians 1:13, 14. It reads " 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. " (emphasis added)

-Explain to them how this scripture allows us to enter the "kingdom of the Son" (which would be Christ ruling the kingdom). That by his ransom it forgave our sins, delivered us from darkness, and transferred us into the kingdom. In fact this is the same way the JW publications view the matter…

***w783/1p.18OurIncomingWorldGovernment—God’sKingdom***12 In this way the first-century believers in the "good news" were brought into a realm of light. But with what was their enlightened condition connected? It was connected with a kingdom. When God "delivered [them] from the authority of the darkness," he at the same time "transferred [them] into the kingdom of the Son of his love." (Col. 1:13) That Son is Jesus Christ.

- In 1914 they believe that Jesus began was given authority in heaven and thus began rulership over the world in that year. The following is the JW’s explanation of how Colossians 1:13, 14 could be true, about being transferred into the kingdom, when it supposedly was not set up until 1914.

-They believe that Jesus’ kingdom at that time was only over ‘spiritual Israelites’ (which is another name for the 144,000 going to heaven) and they were ‘no part of the world’ so, he was not ruling over the world. (Note: the logic of this is contained over several paragraphs in the same article of the 78 Watchtower) So, if he was not really ruling over the world, then he could begin really ruling in 1914.

-Remember that they believe that only 144,000 are going to heaven, and that this Colossians 1:13 is applying only to the 144,000. They believe that they are part of the ‘great crowd’ which does not have a heavenly hope; rather they have a hope to live on earth forever once it is restored to a paradise.

- If the distinction between the 144,000 and great crowd becomes and issue it will detract from the purpose of this outline and basic gospel. It is something of great importance that needs to be discussed, but only at a future date.

- Their attention again needs to be brought back to the points of Matt. 28:18; notating the way Jesus spoke shows that he already had authority when he spoke those words at Matt 28:18.

- Colossians 1:13 needs repeating at this point, so read it again.

6. Now taking in Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 a clear message begins to come together, what do you see that message to be?

-Hopefully they will be able to see what is being said, however it would not surprise me if they could not understand the message that is being portrayed. Remember that it is difficult for the JW to look at this message properly when they have been taught such a different message. Here is the official JW doctrine of the difference between these two scriptures:

***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***16 "Different"—how so? In that it has not been a witness concerning the kingdom mentioned in Colossians 1:13, "the kingdom of the Son of [God’s] love," into which the 144,000 "sealed" spiritual Israelites have been transferred already. (Rev. 7:1-8) What Jehovah’s Witnesses have preached world wide since 1918 is something unique, something that has distinguished these as being the "last days" of the political, social, judicial, militarized system of things. It has been a worldwide witness concerning a royal government now set up in the heavens, empowered to oust the Devil and his demons from the location of its throne.

- If the JW is aware of this doctrine and they are persistent about it, not being willing to see that these scriptures fit together, go back to these scriptures and read them again. After reading these scriptures show them that there is no difference in the language used, that there is no indication that there are two different kingdoms with two different classes of people. If they claim otherwise, have them show where in these two scriptures a difference is indicated.

-The point that needs to be hammered to the JW is that when Jesus commissioned the ‘good news of the kingdom to be preached’ he wanted this message spread: The good news to all is that I have rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place in my kingdom.

7. Did you know that Jesus wanted a corresponding message to be preached to all nations, commissioned at Luke 24:47?

- It reads, " In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem, you are to be witnesses of these things. "

-This scripture is used very little in JW publications and to my knowledge never in conjunction with Matt. 24:14 or Colossians 1:13, so it would not be surprising for them to be unfamiliar with this scripture.

8. Do you see how Luke 24:47 fits in with what has been discussed about Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13?

- Earlier we showed how using Matt. 24:14 and Colossians 1:13 gave this message: The good news to all is that Jesus has rescued you form darkness and redeemed you, which has given you a place Jesus’ kingdom.

- Point out to them that Luke 24:47 completes the basic message of ‘the good news’. Luke 24:14 shows how we have been rescued from darkness and redeemed, showing that it was by Jesus suffering and subsequent rise from the dead.

- In the end the good news is one message of Jesus saving us all, which allows us into his kingdom.

- Some may still contend that there are two different messages being presented in Matt. 24:14 and Luke 24:47. There one possible objection that has not been discussed thus far, and it is not one presented in any JW publications, but is still a possible objection. This would be an argument about the wording in Luke 24:47, saying that the message ‘would be’ preached in all nations. They may contend that Jesus was saying that this preaching would be completed in the first century. However there are some points show them if they use this logic, and are as follows:

- If Jesus was saying that this ‘would be’ completed in the first century. This would have been a hard-to-impossible task, further we know that no message about Jesus was completed in the first century. It took many centuries for this message to be spread to all nations.

- Also, it should be pointed out to the JW that this is a unique translation of this scripture. Most translations have Luke 24:47 translated that the message ‘should be’ preached in all nations. This obviously leaves no room for misinterpretation that we should be preaching a message of salvation.

9. At this point the JW is left with two distinct options about Luke 24:47 and Matt. 24:14. Either they are one message, or the JW is not following Jesus command at Luke 24:47.

-If it is one message, then they are partially preaching this message. The parts they have wrong are that Jesus kingdom was set up in 1914 and that we do not have to be saved by Jesus to allow us into his kingdom. (I have not been able to go into the latter point as much as I would have liked. However, if they believe that Jesus is ruling now and they are not saved but are still part of his kingdom, then they obviously do not believe that salvation is necessary to be part of his kingdom. They believe that if they are not part of the 144,000 they are in the ‘great crowd’ and will be going to paradise, instead of heaven like the 144,000. It is only when they get to paradise that they believe they have salvation. On the other hand, they believe that the 144,000 have salvation currently while on earth before they go to heaven. )

- If they still contend that there are two separate messages, then they are not preaching the message at Luke 24:47. The JW publications certainly do not put any emphases on this scripture or following its command.

10. Conclusion and notes to the Christian.

-This topic could lead to several other discussions, which would be helpful to talk about at a later date. It may be hard to keep things on track, as there is such a difference in beliefs, but it is necessary for this gospel to be preached to the JW. It is paramount to stay on track with this gospel and little effect will be gained by jumping off the topic to explore other doctrinal differences. After this message is given there is a wealth of other topics that could and should be discussed with the JW.

-Remember that they are coming to your do to preach to you, not for you to preach to them. Not only this, but they also are taught to not listen to other religious thinking. There are several scriptures that should be shown if they are resistant simply because ‘it is not what they have been taught’.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine"

2 Corinthians 13:5 "

Keep testing whether YOU are in the faith"

Acts 17:10-12 "

10 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be·roe´a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. 12"

-What I intended to do here was set a basic foundation of the JW understanding of the gospel/good news and provide a way for the true gospel to be preached to them. This is something that Christian should be able to use the first time they encounter a JW and be able to discuss in one session.

- This is certainly not all encompassing and there are several other notable scriptures that talk about the gospel, namely Rom. 1:16, 1 Cor. 1:18, Eph 1:13, 2 Tim. 1:10, and many others. As you can see from the length and depth of this outline that if many other scripture would have been included the length of this would have been far too long for what it was intended.

- If there are any questions about anything discussed or you ever need help in relating to JW, please feel free to contact me at [email protected]

* All quotations of scripture come from the New World Translation unless otherwise specified.

** All references come directly form JW literature and are unaltered. They are also referenced, in the style JW use, at the heading of the JW article. Here is an example and break down of how they are used:

***w8010/1p.28AfterThese"LastDays"God’sMessianicKingdom!***

The first part, w, is the publication, which in this case is the Watchtower. The second part, 80, is the year published, 1980. The third part, 10/1, is the month and day published. The fourth part, p.28, is the page the quote can be found. The finial part, After These "Last Days" God’s Messianic Kingdom! , is the title of the article.

steve2

Wecome!!

Start over???!!! It's been such a soul-destroying hardship doing it the first time round without even thinking about starting over a second time. I need to lay down for a moment

jaguarbass

Good point, DT.

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

DT, good question. Only time will tell what the Organization does. Many individuals, like me, will face the hardship of thinking for themselves. Jehovah's Witnesses used to make sense, give hope, structure, and a measure of joy. Now, the 'present truth' is getting harder to swallow. And with all the restrictions, rules, regulations, plus demands of time, energy, and money, the future doesn't seem too bright when the present is so lacking.

My Struggle, the typical response you'd get from all the JWs I've known is, firstly, "We Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching all over the planet, who are you to try to preach to us. You got the gospel and you're going to preach to me? Knock on every door of this city to find me!" Next, it doesn't matter "gospel of the kingdom" or "good news of the kingdom", the JW perspective is "We serve the Kingdom. You only think you know what the kingdom is." It's easy enough for a JW to smell when someone's trying to preach-back and they'll put up the defenses. Maybe you'd get some to listen, but I wouldn't have. A simple approach for most JWs would be to listen politely, but say how happy you are with your church, Bible studies, the good friends, the activities for youths, programs for relief work, missions to other countries, etc. Simply showing that you're a really good person with a close happy family, that God wouldn't destroy, makes it less likely they'll dislike you and your religion. If they try to press the JW line, just let them know that you're aware of their confusion over doomsday prophecies based on Jesus' reference to a 'generation'. If they aren't backing away, tell them you're aware of the JW pedophile lawsuits and payoffs. Chances are, doctrinal disputes won't influence a JW, problems within the congregation are more likely to affect them.

That's my 2 cents... plus

theistichedonist

I recently posted a review of a portion of chapter 5 of the book What Does the Bible Really Teach. You might find it helpful. In chapter five, the WT discusses the Fall and Ransom of mankind. You can locate the posting at: http://theistichedonist.blogspot.com/ The entry is titled, "Witnessing to the Witnesses" Following is a brief outline and excerpt of the posting:

1. What – according to the Watchtower – was lost at the Fall? (Transcript of pg. 48-50)
a. Adam’s “perfect human life with all it’s blessings.”
2. What ransom can be repaid to recover what Adam lost?
a. A perfect human life – namely Jesus Christ
3. Survey of the passage and a response.
a. Who is God?
b. Why does God exist?
c. What did God lose when Adam fell?
4. Closing remarks.
5. Final questions.

Brief excerpt: "It will be the contention of my review that correctly understanding “the ransom” must be preceded by an accurate understanding of what Adam and God lost at the Fall.
One of the fascinating things that the reader will notice upon reading pages 48-50 of WDTBRT, is how consistently the WT focuses on what Adam lost when he sinned....One of the pressing questions for the WT is this: Is Adam’s perfect life the primary thing that was lost in the Fall? This question is raised because it appears that although Adam’s loss was profoundly devastating, it was peanuts compared to what God lost in the Fall."

flipper

If I were a witness I think I'd get the hell out of the religion and stop wasting my life. And yes, the Witnesses do need to start over . They first have to jump through the righteousness hoop God wants his true organization to follow . And of course, that won't occur until they completely take proactive action in getting rid of the pedophiles in their organization who travel to different congregations molesting children. Oh, and also admit they were totally wrong about the " time of the end". Outside of that, hey, they are free and clear ! LOL! But it won't ever happen- so the witnesses are dead in the water

Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to start over?

Share this