Thank You, CoCo Ami*
I know pas beaucoup on Revelation myself.
But I spend much time in castles in the air and dreams.
Castles surrounded with baobabs are my favourites...
*summer*
Bible question on Revelation...
by *summer* 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
BurnTheShips
Hi Summer,
Revelation is the most difficult book in the bible. It is the last place you want to go to try to build your doctrine. Unfortunately, the Watchtower gives it first prominence.
Burn -
Leolaia
The sense of the text however is legible if you follow the rules of exegesis, which makes sense of the literary elements in their literary context and examines the passage's intertextuality and relationship with other contemporary texts with similar elements. What Bible scholars have noticed is a similarity between the 144,000 in Revelation and the army of the "Sons of Light" in the first-century BC apocalyptic War Scroll (1QM).
The way the 144,000 are enumerated in 7:4-8 is suggestive of an army of soldiers because this passage has the literary form of a census. The purpose of a census in the OT was always to determine the number of people who can be conscripted into battle (cf. Numbers 1:20-46, 2:3-32, 26:2-51; 2 Samuel 24:1-9; 1 Chronicles 27:1-24). The repetition of ek phulés "from the tribe of" in Revelation 7:4-8 recalls the ek tés phulés "from the tribe of" in Numbers 1:21, 23, etc. (LXX). Such censuses also often draw equal numbers from each tribe, like the 12,000 chosen from each tribe in Revelation. In Numbers 31:4-6, 1,000 troops were dispatched from each tribe against Midian; the size of a battalion was 1,000 troops. Interestingly, the 144,000 in Revelation is composed of (12 x 12) x 1,000, such that the total of 12,000 soldiers from Israel sent against Midian in Numbers is what each tribe would furnish in the much greater war in Revelation (i.e. 12,000 troops x 12 tribes = 144,000). The War Scroll gives another parallel. In 1QM 6:11, an array of 6,000 horsemen is mentioned, 500 drawn from each tribe (i.e. 500 x 12 tribes = 6,000 in the cavalry). Moreover, the War Scroll organizes the army of the "Sons of Light" into contingents from the twelve tribes (cf. 1QM 2:2-3, 7, 3:13-14, 5:1-2, 6:10, 14:16). Of course, the natural implication of this is that "spiritual Israel" is not limited to the 144,000. The tribes are much larger than the subset of soldiers conscripted from them. Indeed, the totality of spiritual "Israel" seems to be in view in the innumerable "great multitude" later in ch. 7, of whom "no man can count". Undergoing the "great tribulation" (cf. chapter 13), they would complete the "roll" of the martyrs already killed in heaven (6:9-11). In Genesis, the seed of Abraham was to be "too many to be counted", "as many as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore" (13:16, 15:5, 16:10, 17:5-6), and thus "David took no census of those who were twenty years old and under, since Yahweh had promised to make Israel as numerous as the stars of heaven" (1 Chronicles 27:23-24). The description of the "great multitude" thus recalls the OT image of the totality of Israel (which must not be counted in a census in its totality), while the 144,000 recalls the OT description of military censuses which count out an equal number of soldiers from each tribe (without counting the tribes as a whole).
Furthermore, the individuals enumerated in the OT were males of military age, and Israelite soldiers were required to keep themselves chaste (Deuteronomy 23:9-10; 1 Samuel 21:5; 2 Samuel 11:8-11), and thus the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-4 are "male virgins" undefiled by women. Similarly, the holy warriors of the War Scroll are all "volunteers for battle, pure of spirit and flesh", under the age of 30, and "any man who is not ritually clean in respect to his genitals on the day of battle shall not join them in battle" (1QM 7:3-6). At the same time, there is another striking similarity with the OT and apocalyptic war tradition in the "Great Crowd" who "wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14). According to Numbers 31:19-24, the washing of garments was required after the shedding of blood as a form of ritual purification, and the War Scroll notes that the soldiers "shall wash themselves of the blood of the guilty cadavers" (1QM 14:2-3).
This concept of 144,000 as an army of holy warriors fits in very well with the book as a whole, which construes the martyrs put to death by the Beast and his forces (cf. 6:9-11, 14:7, 15) as victorious over them: "They have triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the witness of their martyrdom because even in the face of death they would not cling to life" (12:11; compare 3:5). "The Lamb is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings, and he will defeat them and they will be defeated by his followers, the called, the chosen, the faithful" (17:13-14).
-
*summer*
Thank You, BTS...
The reason I was asking about this particular verse is because I asked the exact same question to my study conductor this week. And I was curious as to what other input I might get here on the forum.
But so far, everybody seems to agree on this one...that it should not be taken litterally.
*summer*
-
*summer*
Thank You for you input, Leolaia...
In my mind, everything is worth considering.
I guess this is what could be called an "open mind" :-)
*summer*
-
Narkissos
I would add that, imo, there's a bit of a false dilemma in the idea that it must be either literal or symbolic (especially, symbolic of something entirely different like a "religious" or "political" issue).
On the one hand it seems clear that the wording has sexual connotations and reflects a fairly "ascetic" trend; that "virginity" exceeds the temporary "chastity" required from Israelite soldiers in the setting of the priestly rules of "holy war"; and yet that "virginity" clearly has more-than-sexual overtones (contrast the uses of "prostitution" in the OT and Revelation); on the other hand it is also true that an army of 144,000 literal "virgins" from the literal twelve tribes of Israel is beyond any "realistic" perspective and represent an "ideal" picture of fulfillment (on Mt. Zion), where the traits which were really expected from the disciples/martyrs but only partially matched by them have been "perfected" on the spiritual/heavenly/eternal scene.
Although the hermeneutical setting is very different, it may be worth noting that in Philo "virginity" can be "restored" or "acquired", Cf. Cherubim, 50f:
For the association of men, with a view to the procreation of children, makes virgins women. But when God begins to associate with the soul, he makes that which was previously woman now again virgin. Since banishing and destroying all the degenerate appetites unbecoming a human being, by which it had been made effeminate, he introduces in their stead genuine, and perfect, and unadulterated virtues; therefore, he will not converse with Sarah before all the habits, such as other women have, have left her, and till she has returned into the class of pure virgins.
-
Truth and Life
Women. You almost made me leave my faith outside. J.H. Women can take you places you never thought you'd go. I was wrong and I just can't live without you... On and on... Women.The desire for warmth and love.The pain one must face alone, living the life of Christ. Compared to being hugged and kiss by flesh and blood women. With roots in this world. For those who follow Christ all the way...alone? Suffering indeed! And you shall be hated of all men for my name sake. Yes But dearly loved by God Who knows this?
-
JCanon
I'm afraid in this case the virginity has a secret meaning, related to what I called "collateral damage" in Eden. That is, the snake, an innocent bystander essentially got punished along with Satan, Adam and Eve. Their being "virgins" is related in a way. That is, say being RICH pollutes someone some of the time, but not aways. A "virgin" is someone who has never known wealth, never known that feeling or temptation. So the fact that these are all "virgins" excludes them from a certain group/type that Jehovah is excluding from the kingdom, sort of a similar "collateral damage" type exclusion, like "no winged serpents" to be allowed in this group.
The messiah in the form of a black cross-dresser has to do with the focussed blight of that excluded group in the kingdom. So think of the "virgins" as virgins with respect to exposure to certain kinds of activity or knowledge. You know, it's sort of the same as shooting the horse that threw the child and killed it. It's just an "out of sight, out of mind" kind of things.
Being a "virgin" can apply to someone who is excluded from something, anything; like someone who has never flown in an airplane or someone who has never been on a cruise or something. You call them "virgins" in that regard. It's like those who never had the mark of the beast on their hand or on their forehead.
JCanon
-
Black Sheep
"no falsehood was found in their mouths."
If this literal 144,000 was to fit the description "no falsehood was found in their mouths.", why is it that so much of what they have said is now 'corrected'?
If I was a baptised JW I would not remain in good standing for long if I went to the Hall spouting some of the doctrines I obtained from the 'mouths' of the 144,000 in my youth.
Cheers
Chris
-
LouBelle
I must I no longer take the bible literal, because then one could literally throw most of it away as it's history.
The woman in the bible (for me) represents the weaker one, the lesser light (many times mentioned as the moon) Darkness, Our lesser selves. Our flesh. (This starts right from the beginning of the bible, suface/depth, sun/moon, evening/morning, above/below, dark/light, man/woman - there always seem to be pairs, one stronger than the other and one that is it's opposite)
Mentioning of virgins - one hasn't "fornicated"/ partaken, been indoctrinated by worlds' religions, therefore has a clean outlook, has been reborn of spirit.
.......I got to go back to that scripture....