Bible Error: Jesus Cures the Leper

by JosephAlward 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    The author of Mark thinks that Jesus cured the leper after he cured Simon Peter’s mother-in-law, but the author of Matthew says just the opposite: He thinks that Jesus cured the leper before he cured the mother-in-law. They both cannot be right, so the Bible is in error. Here is the evidence:

    Mother-in-Law First, Then the Leper:

    30 Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her…he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons. 40 A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean." 41 Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured. (Mark 1:30-42)

    The Leper First, Then the Mother-in-Law:

    2 A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean." 3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy... 14 When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15 He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. (Matthew 8:2-15)

    This is but one of hundreds of errors, contradictions, and inconsistencies in the Bible.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Hi Joseph,
    How many times have I told you that the GOSPEL STYLE was designed to hide details like this?

    It purposely uses parallel events that vary just a little bit which makes you think they are the same event but in fact, they are specifically two different but similar events.

    Case in point is where it says that Simon will deny Jesus three times before a cock crows, and in another place it says he will deny him three times before a cock crows twice.

    Well if you follow the details closely enough, you'll see that BOTH statements are true. That is, Peter denied Jesus at least three times before a cock crowed once and then another three times before a cock had a chance to crow twice!

    Just for your background, after Peter denied Jesus a third time while in the courtyard, he heard the cock crow and looked at Jesus and remembered what he said and distressed, he head for the door to weep. But this was a large house and to get from the courtyard to outside he had to go through various passages ways including a gate house to get outside where various groups were congregated. So it happened, from the time the cock crowed once until it crowed again, which might have been just a few minutes, Peter ended up denying Jesus to each of the groups he had to pass through to get outside so that by the time he finally did get outside a cock had crowed a second time and he had denied Jesus another three times.

    But the way the information is presented, it is clear it was purposely set up to be similar to force you to understand the details.

    The same thing with the three Mary Magdalenes who were around Jesus who came to the grave at three different times. The Bible could have simply told us there were three of them right up front, then when we read the accounts we would have figured out when each of them went to the grave and with whom. But the way the gospel is written it almost seems like a variation of the same event. But it's not.

    Therefore, by doing this, and keeping us in tune to the SPECIFIC DETAILS, we learn more information that is hidden.

    So in your example, based upon the above, the first presumption would be that Jesus cured one leper before he healed Peter's mother-in-law and another one afterward, under similar circumstances.

    So you see, the casual reader would not have noticed anything. The negative reader, like yourself, might presume there is an error. But the trained Biblicalist knows that this was just a way the gospel had of showing that Jesus healed two lepers, one before and one after this event.

    But there are lots of fun examples of this in scripture where some people get confused over things because they miss critical details that prove that Jesus is talking about two different things but with very similar details.

    At any rate, just knowing the gospels do this on purpose, we would not be able to qualify this as an ERROR and there is probably some other place in scripture that will prove these were two different lepers he healed.

    It's no different than if you knew two women named "Mary" who you saw at the mall, one at 1:00 p.m. at Macy's and one at 2:00 p.m. at Starbucks. But two sets of different friends who knew only one the Mary's asked you: "Did you see Mary?" and you said: "Yes, at 1:00....". But you would know which Mary that person was talking about. But later if you told someone else you saw Mary at a different time and place and they made a comparison of your statements, they'd think you were confused or lying, when in fact, you were talking about two different Marys. The only thing missing is a statement that spelled it out to you that: There were two Marys that I saw, one at 1:00 and one a 2:00. Then there would be no conflict. But the absence of that statment is the point of Jewish style becuase you should be able to tell by the different times and circumstances these were two different Marys, IF, in fact, you consider the person to be truthful and not confused.

    So the fact that you think the gospel writers are incompetent and oncfused most of the time is why you are seeing ERRORS when, in fact, there is no credible error, just your lack of understanding gospel style. And as I said, Jesus himself pointedly noted that he spoke in a way to hide things from the outsiders and to show secrets to his followers.

    So again, you're saying NOTHING about an "error" because you are presuming this is the same leper; when it isn't.

    So you're just all excited about all these "errors" and everything and we "insiders" are just laughing at you because we know you don't know what you're doing nor understand the complexity of the gospels.

    So we don't mind you are finding these errors since it trips you up and we were not going to share any sacred secrets with you anyway. But just know that for us, your argument has nil effect and we're just ignoring you, mildly amused that you are learning some detail of scripture; which is more than many witnesses, by the way.

    So if you're REALLY HONEST, I'll show you some DOOZIES that even JWs can't accept because they don't believe scripture. In fact, I'd like to get your opinion about them if you like.

    Anyway, for the record, this is just the gospel's way of letting us know Jesus cured two lepers that day. That's all. No error.
    But I do sympathize with you; the gospels are not that friendly to outsiders, so it's okay. We understand your disposition.

    L.G.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Larsguy writes, "Anyway, for the record, this is just the gospel's way of letting us know Jesus cured two lepers that day. That's all. No error."

    Alward responds:

    So, Larsguy thinks there were two lepers that day, one met by Jesus on the way to Simon Peter's house, and another one met after Jesus left the house. Forum members will note that this is just one more example of the extremes to which inerrantists are willing to go in order to defend the literalness of the Bible.

    Larsguy expects forum members to believe that there were two different lepers, and that each leper said exactly the same thing to Jesus, and he said exactly the same thing to them!

    "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean."
    "I am willing," he said.
    "Be clean."

    Nobody believes what Larsguy believes, I'm sure, and he would be thrown out of the Governing Body chambers--if ever he were let inside--if he were ever to offer such an interpretation.

    Larsguy obviously had never seen this contradiction before and was too hasty in constructing his response. If he had been more thoughtful he would have realized that one could--using his logic--equally well argue that the Bible writer was telling us--using Larsguy's imagined special "Jewish writing style"--that there was only ONE leper, and two different mothers-in-law, one for "Peter" and one for "Simon"! Or, if we assume that Simon and Peter are one and the same Simon Peter, we could argue that Jesus made TWO visits to the mother-in-law: one before the leper was cured, and one afterward.

    How does he know that there weren't two different men, one "Simon," and the other "Peter," and therefore two different mothers-in-law, one visited before the leper was cured, and the other visited after the leper was cured? Or, how does Larsguy know that there weren't two different visits to the same mother-in-law? If Larsguy can imagine that there were two different lepers, why can't we imagine the alternative scenarios?

    If Larsguy responds by saying, again, that he's TELLING ME DIRECTLY what the truth is, we will know that he really doesn't know how to respond.

    Does Larsguy understand the absurdity of his claims, or is he content to whistle in the graveyard, and pretend that everything is going to be alright?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Is the focus of those scriptures on the chronological order of what happened or is it to simply report on certain miracles Jesus performed?

    ONE....

    bigboi

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Joseph,

    I actually take this to be a confirmation that the gospels are true. If the stories were remembered exactly the same way it would point to collusion between the writers. As it is, each is writing as best as they remember the event. Which is more important to relate, WHEN specifically Jesus healed, or THAT Jesus healed?

    The Holy Spirit used the agency of men to inspire the Gospel. That the chronology is off from one to the other isn't devastating to the message.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    haha lars, funny as always. maybe there were actually FOUR jesus's that just all did remarkably similar but slightly different things. that's the 'gospel style' dont you know? what about the 'style' of reality, lars? namely the style for remarkably similar things, coincidences, to NOT be happening over and over again to the same person.

    but seriously, there are 2 different ways to deal with this type of contradiction that have been covered already. one is to say that one writer was not writing chronologically, most often this is matthew. i beleive in this case, that option is open to us. i would need to check my Greatest Man book for the WT interpretation.

    of course that option is often not open to us because enough details are provided to establish context. then we have to say there are multiple events. often this creates awkward coincidences almost as stupid as lars' here where entire sequences of events play out twice at different times.

    mox

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    I agree with Yeru and Mox that a more plausible explanation of the apparent contradiction is that the gospel writers recorded what they thought might have been events in the life of Jesus without regard with the particular order in which the events occurred. This interpretation is vastly more believable than the preposterous one proposed by the one who thinks he was chosen to be one of the few in the world who truly understands the Bible.

    However, this means that the Bible is not the literal word of a God, and therefore it's subject to the errors made by fallible men. If there can be an error in chronology on one page, there can be errors of other kinds on other pages, and perhaps the story of the resurrection contains errors, too.

    The evidence I've seen shows that the "Jesus" described in the gospels didn't exist. The gospel writers may have sincerely believed that there was a "Jesus," and that he was the savior written about in the Old Testament, but they were not eyewitnesses to any of the "events" they reported. The healings and feedings by Jesus, the walking on water, and other "miracles" are actually just remakes of events reported about either Moses, Elijah, Elisha, David, or Yahweh. The writers perhaps sincerely believe that these Old Testament heroes did things that would later be echoed by the savior, so they just assumed that the "Jesus" they wrote about did those things, too.

    Articles which deal with this topic are found in links on the web page listed below.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    Joseph, you're not doing your JOB! You're far too desperate.

    You know very well there is more than one way to interpret the Bible or even to look at the same facts. Sorry, but you're not in a position to dismiss another person's solution or viewpoint of this situation just because it astounds you.

    But on that note, there is a Bible verse that says specifically that people of the flesh cannot understand the things of the spirit and it completely confuses them.

    So, of course, you are confused and think you're seeing errors becuase you are looking at the scriptures in a fleshly way. Those of us with spirit see it differently.

    But beyond that, simply from an academic point of view, you cannot prove that the different accounts in this case was a reference to two separate healings of two separate lepers, even though I told you the gospels in particular do this often with parallel accounts so they can hide the details and background facts.

    And it's working very well. You're trying to find the "logical" explanation or the most "reasonable" explanation and don't realize that the gospels have gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to fool you in a deliberate manner.

    Here's another critically good example. When Jesus said: "Nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR" the master would arrive so keep on the watch. He even said you don't know if he will arrive in a certain watch.

    But clearly, read in a normal context this would be taken that the precise timing of the second coming would be something that would be a surprise to many and that it is not a definite time. I'll grant that.

    But the fact is, the disciples knew already precisely the year the Messiah would arrive since the Bible prescribes the year of the second coming just as it prescribed the year of the first coming (i.e. 483 years past the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem").

    So what you have here is a SPECIFIC but misleading statement. That is, while Christ is saying "Nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR" he is not saying that the MONTH and YEAR are not clearly prescribed---make that--secretly prescribed in scripture!

    But he doesn't contradict himself when he refers to the DAY nor HOUR.

    So you see, this statement would sort of keep the general public and unbelievers rather relaxed about the chronology in the scriptures thinking nobody know when the Messiah would arrive, but most people extrapolating that it could be any generation or decade that's in doubt, when really, it is SPECIFICALLY just the DAY and HOUR since the MONTH and YEAR are derivable from scripture.

    So that's what I'm trying to tell you. The spiritual minded who know scripture would know that the precise year and one out of 4 possible months would be the limits to when the Messiah would arrive and so his statement "Nobody knows the day nor hour" in that context becomes a SPECIFIC statement to specifically mean the DAY and HOUR since the month and year were known to them. But for someone not calculating the month and year ahead of time, this statement might seem to suggest a longer period of flexibility other than 1 to 24 hours.

    The academic reality, though, is that you have a specifically true statement that could easily be misinterpreted and thus the premise that it was intentionally spoken that way to throw the doubters off track. But that Jesus would do something like that is clearly stated in scripture since his attitude was not to give information to the outsiders but to keep the sacred secrets to his followers. He was always excluding them.

    So you're confounded because you think the gospel writers were simply somewhat unschooled and incompetent or haphazard about relating these events rather than believing the gospels are a complex revelation of secrets that can only be understood by the anointed ones, EVEN THOUGH JESUS SAYS SO!

    So you have NO BASIS WHATSOEVER, to dismiss that premise, in this case, that this is simply relating to two separate events of healing a leper that were similar. You can't accept that answer.

    But instead, you decide that I'm wrong, you're right, and then based upon your OPTIONAL presumption that the rest of the Bible must be wrong as well. But you're doing it without having proven your point. Your basis for dismissing the rest of the Bible is based upon your OPINION but not proven error.

    So, therefore, you're just a JOKE to us since you've proven nothing. You didn't do your homework.

    So it's fine you believe the Bible is erroneous and not the word of God or whatever, based upon your personal beliefs, but not dismissible by ERROR since you've proven none.

    So dismiss the Bible because you don't like it, that's fine. But not because you've invented some error and you're using that as a basis to LOGICALLY and responsibly not believe.

    Joseph, you'll just have to do better than finally simply dimissing me as being WRONG and stupid, while we're presuming you're correct and smart and based upon THAT, we can proceed to dismiss all the scriptures. It doesn't work that way. You started out pointing out an alleged ERROR and you didn't prove your point so you can't proceed past that, sorry.

    So all I can say is you're entitled to your own disbeliefs and I'm entitled to mine, but so far I've found no ERRORS in the scriptures and nothing you have brought up so far has proven an error so we're back at square one: You on the outside, me on the inside.

    Anyway, this is FUN to me, so keep em coming!!!

    L.G.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Joe,

    I'll go this far with you, The Jesus seen in the bible is seen in the eyes of faith. I've never fully understood the use of the term "literal word of God". If this is meant to imply that the Holy Spirit dictated the bible verbatim to the writers then I would reject that idea out of hand. However, if by the term one means that the spiritual message contained is that intended by God then I can live with that.

    I believe the bible is indeed true, I don't necessarily believe in Creationism over creationary evolution though. I don't think that because chronology is off negates the bible as spiritual truth.

    YERUSALYIM
    "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
    [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Yeru writes,

    I believe the bible is indeed true, I don't necessarily believe in Creationism over creationary evolution though. I don't think that because chronology is off negates the bible as spiritual truth.

    Alward responds:

    I agree that a false chronology doesn't negate whatever "spiritual truth" may be found in the Bible. However, fundamentalists will disagree with you; their entire belief system is built around the assumption that there are no errors whatsoever in the Bible. They take the position held by St. Augustine (354-430), who was one of the founders of the Roman Catholic Church. He well understood that Christianity was like a house of cards; if the church dared to admit to even a single error in the Bible, who could say there wasn't an error on every page? The resurrection story might then be false and everyone's hopes are in vain. This is what he said:

    "The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28.

    Now, Yeru, you say that you don't necessarily believe the story of the six days of creation as described in Genesis. Well, if that's true, then on what basis do you believe that the resurrection of Jesus actually happened? If the Bible writers might not have been speaking the literal truth when they wrote Genesis, might the gospel writers also not have been speaking literally? How do you know?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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