If you STILL believe in GOD, what do you believe is the RIGHT way?

by Bourne 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • poppers
    poppers
    Thirdly, to others suggesting that I "deconstruct" my beliefs and start from scratch......I have and am still in the process of doing that, bothfrom scratchand from the angle of keeping the christian faith and proceeding from that point onwards.

    What nvr said. You can't have it both ways - there can be no deconstruction as long as you are looking through any particular lens of belief. It takes real courage to let go of everything, of every belief, even the belief that you are a separate individual.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Not to take anything away from those who think that maybe you need to throw the entire contents of the pantry out, then go out, plant your own seed, wait for the wheat to grow, harvest it, mill it, grind it into flour, and THEN bake your "cake." Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong if you just pull out the bag of Gold Medal.

    Just use the "unbleached" kind: although it's already been a bit processed, it still makes a lovely cake. And no one will question whether your cake is actually "from scratch."

    I bid you peace.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong if you just pull out the bag of Gold Medal.

    Just use the "unbleached" kind: although it's already been a bit processed, it still makes a lovely cake. And no one will question whether your cake is actually "from scratch."

    Haha!

    We're in agreement, AGuest.

    By all means he should use the flour and eggs and all that. Gold Medal is ok. Store brand is too.

    I just think he's still using this to bake his cake...

  • Bourne
    Bourne

    To everyone: Thanks for all the interesting viewpoints.

    If I may request though, please indulge me with more comments closer to what I am currently exploring.

    In this, I would like to explain myself (and think out-loud) a bit further.

    I have always had a critical and scientific approach to things. Sometimes with good results....sometimes with bad results. And in doing so in regards to religion I have started with the beginning.......(Is there a God?........If so, then) ....that kind of thing. What I have come down to is my present view, that of seeing a clear need to please God. That said, ...just for the sake of argument,....if you believe that the Bible IS from god, then it would follow that you would proceed from the most accurate translations, and from these proceed under your ownconscience in following God's Word. Because, IF you assume that he wanted us to please him, he would have to make sure that a "reasonable" picture of his original thoughts survived from the first century down to our day. That said, for him to hold against us making mistakes due to differences in translations, after doing the best we can, would be flat-out WRONG.....even for him.

    So..then it would follow that logically, the answer must be that, as someone posted earlier ( I can't remember who): Organized religion ,is, at best,nothing more than a guide to help us, but one that "should not" have any divinely-authorized authority or corrective capacity.....just a meek guide.

    Now, admittedly, christianity is NOT the only religion on earth, so it must follow that until some kind of supernatural ultimatum is given (in the form of a booming voice or universal revelation, of sorts, to all, so as to prompt a choice to worship him or not, ......UNTIL THEN, it would be wrong of him to hold our uncertainty against us individually, especially when you consider that Jesus himself warned us of false prophets, false angels of light, etc.

    It seems that it would be cruel to knowingly submit us all to vast uncertainty and then punish us with death for not being sure about which way to go.

    But, to go a step further, it could be argued that organized religion in ALL its forms IS the object referred to in the book of REV as...Babylon the Great and is what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he stated that after he was gone that the APOSTOCY would arise....leaving what I stated above.....All of us, individually, using the bible and the holy spirit, which Jesus said would be our "helper", to train our conscience in doing his will, as we await the end.

    That is....if you agree with the title of this thread.

    Just some food for thought.

    Bourne

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate
    But, to go astep further, it could be argued that organized religion in ALL its forms IS the object referred to in the book of REV as...Babylon the Great and is what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he stated that after he was gone that the APOSTOCY would arise....leaving what I stated above.....All of us, individually, using the bible and the holy spirit, which Jesus said would be our "helper", to train our conscience in doing his will, as we await the end.

    That's not "a step further", my friend, that is where reality begins. Organized religion is part of Babylon the Great, it is part of an ancient way of relying on men rather than God. Putting faith in God,not men, is the answer.

    BA- "Keep on knocking and the door will be opened."

  • Bourne
    Bourne

    When I said "a step further" , I meant in the sense of including the JW religion....all organized religion together......or in other words.......throwing the JW religion in WITH Babylon the Great.....leaving just the individual....if people want to congregate? Fine. Just NO authority over your fellow-man.

    Bourne

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate
    When I said "a step further" , I meant in the sense of including the JW religion....all organized religion together......or in other words.......throwing the JW religion in WITH Babylon the Great.....leaving just the individual....if people want to congregate? Fine. Just NO authority over your fellow-man.

    Exactly. I don't see how any other interpretation could sincerely be derived.

    BA- Cheers!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace!

    If you will permit me, I would like to respond to your initial questions, as the Spirit has now permitted me, before proceeding with a response to your latest comments.

    1. Is this the last days?

    No. The “last day” is when the general resurrection occurs… which is AFTER the abyssing of Satan… which is AFTER the 1,000 years have ended… which is AFTER the 1,000 years… which is AFTER the “great tribulation”… which is AFTER our Lord returns and EVERY eye sees him… which has not occurred, yet. That is not to say, however, that we should start living as if it is not.

    2. If so, was a preaching work to be done? If so, in what format?

    A “preaching work” IS to be “done”… regardless of what “day” it is. The format is NOT “house-to-house,” as erroneously taught by the WTBTS. They erroneously take that from Paul’s words where he stated that he did not hold off from going from house to house preaching/teaching. What Paul was REFERRING to here was that he went from the house of one chosen… to the house of another chosen one… to the house of another chosen one… and so on… sharing with them the things revealed to him by the Spirit.

    He did NOT go around randomly knocking on folks doors, however – he could not. How do we know this? We know because of what my Lord said… and did:

    a. When he sent his disciples out, he told them to search out those “deserving.” Contrary to the false teaching of the WTBTS that such ones are determined by how they “respond” to their message, they are DETERMINED… by Christ. And by no other means. HE… ALONE… determines who is “deserving.” And so, for example, he TOLD Philip to join himself to the eunuch’s chariot. He TOLD Ananias to receive Paul. He TOLD Peter to find Cornelius. He TOLD Cornelius to find Peter.

    b. He TOLD those he sent out to STAY IN THE HOUSE of those HE sent them TO; they would know such ones by whether or not they accepted the greeting of peace he told them to wish upon the household.

    Bottom line: HE… sends his disciples to those who are “deserving”… or sends such “deserving” ones… to his disciples: “YOU… did not choose ME; I… chose YOU.”

    3. If you conclude that "organized" religion is not needed or sanctioned by god, what do you believe was to be the desired method of worship?

    The REQUIRED method... is Spirit… and Truth, in two ways:

    Way 1 - By OUR spirit (the “man” you are on the INSIDE, as flesh with its blood cannot enter into the spirit realm)… and WITH truth (you cannot enter into the Most Holy and approach God unless you are “clean.” This does not mean that you are not “ceremonially” clean (i.e., having bathed your flesh, which was a “sign” of “things to come”)… nor does it mean that you are without sin, per se. We are, all of us… “with sin.” It means that you must be clean ON THE INSIDE – i.e., without hatred, without deception, without hypocrisy, so that your “other” sins… can be “covered over”… and “blotted out”… by CHRIST… who can and will do so by means his BLOOD… by which our sins are FORGIVEN… and “cleansed.” If you have hatred, deception and hypocrisy, then you PREVENT the Christ from applying the atoning value of his blood against your sins. Universal law.

    Way 2 – By the Spirit and TRUTH… the HOLY Spirit of God, His TRUTH… that is the glorified Christ. There is NO OTHER “WAY” in which we can approach God. None. JOHN 14:6

    To help you understand this truth, I give you the example of Joseph… and Pharaoh. Although Pharaoh was the HIGHEST authority in the land, he gave ALL authority, except that over himself… to Joseph… including dispensing grain to the hungry. What did this mean? It meant that if you wanted some of PHARAOH’s grain to keep you and your household living… you had to go to JOSEPH… to get it! You could NOT just march up to the palace and say, “Hey, Pharaoh, I’m hungry, my household is hungry… and we’d like some grain.” Not even if you had 10-gajillion denarii to pay for it. The RULE was that IF you wanted grain… you had to march up to JOSEPH’S door. And then JOSEPH… AND NO ONE ELSE… would determine whether you would get some of Pharaoh’s grain.

    IF you tried to get into the palace to approach Pharaoh WITHOUT having gone through Joseph… you got nothing. NOTHING. In addition, you were tossed out, maybe even imprisoned for your impetuousness… maybe even killed (say, if you didn’t “leave quietly”). Why? Because… IF YOU DISRESPECTED, DISREGARDED, OVERLOOKED, or IGNORED JOSEPH… you, in essence, DISRESPECTED, DISREGARDED, OVERLOOKED, or IGNORED PHARAOH… because HE is the one who made the RULE that Joseph was the “go to” man.

    It is the exact same thing… with the Christ. NO ONE… can come to the Father… EXCEPT through him! John 14:6 And so, simply saying “in the name of Jeezus”… won’t cut it.

    4. Given the fact of the Tetregrammaton's obvious existence, do you believe that the usage (regardless of the uncertainty of pronounciation) of god's personal name is desired of god?

    Yes. Vehemently, yes. What that name IS… however, is another story… and not what you have been led to believe. The WTBTS has taught you that God’s name is “Jehovah”… based on some contrived mistransliteration of consonants “JHVH” in that name. Others have told you that the name is “Yahweh” and mistransliterate the actual consonants themselves (“YHWH”). The TRUTH… is that God’s name… is JAH… of Armies… and the CORRECT transliteration is “JHVH” – however, the VOWELS are “a” and “e”… only… and NOT “e,” “o” and “a’. So that the TRUE name is:

    JaHVeH

    pronounced "Yah Veh"... and means “JAH… of Armies”… technically... and “He who breathes armies into existence,” “He who brings forth armies,” “He who causes armies to become,” literally. Any of those are accurate. And by “armies,” it does not mean military might… but NUMBERS… as in myriads of angels.

    5. Did god and jesus basically expect us to congregate in "loosely" knit congregations ( as described in the book of Rev.) for support and fellowship only, as we await the end?

    No, no expectation. Indeed, most of the Prophets served from a solitary position. My Lord himself, while having a great crowd eventually follow him, only initially chose 12 to be “in congregation” with him. Thus, there only needs to be ONE to be “used” by the Spirit; however, “where TWO… or MORE… are gathered” (and such gathering is “in his name”… meaning, the PURPOSE of the gathering is to either receive spirit… or impart spirit…)… there HE is also.

    6. If this is the case, then.....generally speaking, does this not mean that "all (christian) roads lead to the same place"......that old saying, which the JW's like to poo-poo, so as to endorse the concept of one true religion?

    All “Christian” roads do NOT lead “to the same place,” for there is only ONE "road"… one “Way”… Christ. There is NO other “way”. None.

    And simply calling oneself a “Christian” does not make one so. A ‘christian”… is a “christ”… or “chosen/anointed”… person. Christ-ian. They have been chosen BY CHRIST… by means of an anointing with God’s holy spirit. There are MANY “false” christs, however, with the purpose of “mislead[ing], if possible, even the chosen ones.”

    But Christ’s TRUE chosen ones, those who are TRULY anointed with holy spirit… HIS sheep… hear HIS voice… and do not listen to voice of “strangers,” no matter what they call themselves. John 10:1-15, 27.

    I have read CoC and IsoCF by Raymond Franz and understand that he generally does NOT belong to any organized religion. But, I obviously don't want to "follow" yet another man's interpretation of god's word.

    Well, the TRUTH is that if you wish to see God, you MUST follow His Word. That Word, however, is NOT the Bible. Rather, it is the Holy One of Israel, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH… of Armies.

    John 1:14; Revelation 19:13

    God has no other Word. None. And although God USED to speak us through the Prophets (which ones received what they did from my Lord), He NOW speaks to us... by means of that Word, His Son.

    Hebrews 1:2

    Thus the humble request for your sincere opinions.

    I, YOUR humble servant, by means of being servant of ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with, have stated it to you just as I have heard it and received it from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. Truthfully… and sincerely. HE is the Light that came into the world… and only HE… is the Light that “brightens” our path through this journey. There is no other. Truly.

    I have other questions but these are the biggies. I really welcome any and all input.

    I, SA, have not withheld anything that I have been granted to share with you here from you.

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whose name is JAH… of Armies… and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA (“Jah Saves; Salvation of Jah”) MISCHAJAH (“chosen/anointed of JAH”) be upon you, if you so wish. May He, through Christ, grant you ears to hear what the Spirit… and the Bride… KEEP saying, to ALL those thirsting, ALL those wishing, ALL those seeking, ALL who are asking… and ALL who are knocking:

    “Come! Take ‘life’s water’… the holy spirit of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH… of Armies… which spirit is poured from the most inward parts of HIS chosen “cistern”… His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… free!”

    Your servant, and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Again, dear Bourne, may you have peace!

    If I may request though, please indulge me with more comments closer to what I am currently exploring.

    Okay, I will try to that!

    In this, I would like to explain myself (and think out-loud) a bit further.

    Okay, and so that you understand where I am coming from in responding to you (which I think you deserve, at a minimum), please know that what I share with you is not my own, but what I receive by means of holy spirit. I know you may have some exception with that at this present time in your life (and I don’t blame you, given the misinformation you have been given so far about such things), but I am speaking the truth to you. So, perhaps if we bear with one another, we can get you to what (or whom) you may be seeking. Or at least, to the Door which leads to such.

    I have always had a critical and scientific approach to things. Sometimes with good results....sometimes with bad results. And in doing so in regards to religion I have started with the beginning.......(Is there a God?........If so, then) ....that kind of thing. What I have come down to is my present view, that of seeing a clear need to please God.

    Personally, I think that’s wonderful, truly! A good many others, however, would disagree with you, not only because they think this is burdensome… but unnecessary even. This is because they have been misled as to what “pleases” God, including having such things as the Old Law Covenant shoved at them… and upon them… those “shoving” being, almost without exception, false christs and hypocrites.

    That said, ...just for the sake of argument,....if you believe that the Bible IS from god, then it would follow that you would proceed from the most accurate translations, and from these proceed under your own conscience in following God's Word.

    That may be true IF I believed the Bible was from God and/or that it is God’s Word. I do not… and I can PROVE to you… FROM the Bible… that it is neither. I would also counter that, because ALL translations are inaccurate, and that NONE is more accurate than any other, IF you need the Bible to begin your quest to find what you are seeking, a GOOD course would be to read them ALL (i.e., every version). The BEST course… would be to read NONE of them... but follow, instead what Christ is recorded to have said at John 5:39, 40 (which is something the Spirit reveals to us without the Bible).

    Because, IF you assume that he wanted us to please him, he would have to make sure that a “reasonable” picture of his original thoughts survived from the first century down to our day.

    Actually, the latter assumption (that a reasonable picture of His original thoughts would have survived down to our day), is absolutely correct. And it has. It is the “picture” itself, however, that has been falsely stated. And THAT… is why MOST people don’t have a clue as to who and what God is: they are looking… at the WRONG… “image.” The "image" we're SUPPOSED to be looking at... is Christ... the "image of the living God."

    That said, for him to hold against us making mistakes due to differences in translations, after doing the best we can, would be flat-out WRONG.....even for him.

    He doesn’t. And those who teach that He does… are unknowing and ignorant, some imposters, even.

    So..then it would follow that logically, the answer must be that, as someone posted earlier ( I can't remember who): Organized religion is, at best, nothing more than a guide to help us,

    Actually, that is false. Organized religion has one purpose: to lead you AWAY from God… by teaching you to follow virtually everything else EXCEPT the One God TOLD you to follow. And even those who say to follow that One… tell you to do it… by following them. That, however, is NOT what God told you to do.

    but one that "should not" have any divinely-authorized authority or corrective capacity.....just a meek guide.

    Meek… or not so meek… they are all merely “hired men.” And what does the “hired man” DO? Why does he do it? If we don't know, by means of the Spirit, then John 10:1-15 tells us.

    Now, admittedly, christianity is NOT the only religion on earth, so it must follow that until some kind of supernatural ultimatum is given (in the form of a booming voice or universal revelation, of sorts, to all, so as to prompt a choice to worship him or not, ......UNTIL THEN, it would be wrong of him to hold our uncertainty against us individually, especially when you consider that Jesus himself warned us of false prophets, false angels of light, etc.

    Well, if He had told you that “some kind of supernatural ultimatum” would be the means by which such would be revealed to you… yes. But He didn’t. He TOLD you… that He would send His Son… that THAT One would lead you… that THAT One was the One you were to follow… and NO other. And THAT One told you… HOW it is that you "follow" him.

    It seems that it would be cruel to knowingly submit us all to vast uncertainty and then punish us with death for not being sure about which way to go.

    But that is NOT what occurred, actually. God... was VERY clear. It is the false christs, false prophets, scribes and Pharisees who have submitted us to “vast uncertainty.” Nor were we promised death for not being sure which way to go. You have been LIED to about these things, and, as a result, misled. But the TRUTH of that… has not be hidden from you. We believe what “they” say… “they” who mislead. We don’t HAVE to…

    But, to go a step further, it could be argued that organized religion in ALL its forms IS the object referred to in the book of REV as...Babylon the Great and is what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he stated that after he was gone that the APOSTOCY would arise....

    It could be argued, yes, among those who do not know what Babylon the Great truly represents. For those who DO know what she represents, however, the argument would fail. It is not HARD, however, to know who and what she represents, for her description is NOT a “mystery” at all. You have been misled to believe it is… by those who teach this falsehood, including those who do it through a publication that LABEL her identification as a mystery (for example, “The Finished Mystery.”)

    leaving what I stated above.....All of us, individually, using the bible and the holy spirit, which Jesus said would be our "helper", to train our conscience in doing his will, as we await the end.

    You are only partly correct here, and that is what is standing in your way. You said, “using the bible and the holy spirit, which Jesus said would be our "helper", to train our conscience in doing his will…” I must ask you, where did Christ say to use the Bible to help train your conscience? Where did any of the 12? True, PAUL (who was NOT one of the 12, but whom so MANY who profess to be “christian” tend to follow FIRST) is recorded to have said that “All scripture is beneficial, etc.” But how have you come to believe that the Bible… is “all scripture”? Christ is recorded to tell us what “scripture” is… and it is not the entire Bible. In this, you have been misled. And… even though PAUL said to use the “scriptures”… what did CHRIST say? I point you to John 5:39, 40, and ask you, who is greater, Paul… or the Christ? Who are we to follow? Paul… or the Christ?

    That is....if you agree with the title of this thread.

    I do agree with the title of this thread; however, I disagree with what you appear to believe is… the right “Way.” I get that there are all kinds of folks out there, scholars, theologists, “experts” and others who direct us to religion and denominations… including non-denominations. Yet, NONE of them are the way… have the way… or KNOW the way. So how that they direct YOU? They cannot. So, what should we DO? I cannot speak for anyone but myself and what I learned, by means of the Holy Spirit, is that we should go by what our LORD is recorded to have said was the Way. You can read that for yourself, if you need to, at John 14:6.

    Just some food for thought.

    And I thoroughly enjoyed “dining” with you!

    To conclude: When I said "a step further" , I meant in the sense of including the JW religion....all organized religion together......or in other words.......throwing the JW religion in WITH Babylon the Great.....leaving just the individual....if people want to congregate? Fine. Just NO authority over your fellow-man.

    That really is how it should be. Unfortunately, due to man’s NEED to “dominate” … or be dominated by… one another… you always… ALWAYS… get either someone who wants to be “in charge” (due, many times to a need for some kind of “glory,” but often because of some misperceived need for “orderliness” that requires “leadership”)… or those who want someone [else] to be “in charge,” for the same reasons (wanting/needing to “glorify” someone else, or a desire to be led, as well as due to (1) fear… (of many things, including “God”… being wrong… being right… others, etc.)… or (2) lack (of many things, including faith, confidence, desire to be held personally responsible, etc.).

    If we simply follow the Christ, however, the TRUE Faithful Witness of God… the FINE Shepherd, we won’t have these problems. “Wicked men” WON’T arise “from within [us]” because we, ALL of us, would know that in order to be GREATEST among us… we must, individually, be the LEAST among us… which means that we are, ALL of us… servants… to one another.

    So that, rather than being the one who wants his feet and face washed… like Peter… we would, individually, ALL be the one who actually gets down on our knees… and washes the feet of all OTHERS. Technically… and if called for, literally. "Just as I have done to you, you also must do to one another."

    I bid you the GREATEST of love and peace, dear Bourne… and ears to hear what the Spirit AND the Bride KEEP saying, to ALL those wishing, thirsting, seeking, asking… and knocking:

    “Come! Take ‘life’s water’… the holy spirit of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH… of Armies… which spirit is poured from the most inward parts of His chosen “cistern”… His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… free!”

    Your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with… and a slave of Christ… to time indefinite...

    SA

  • blueviceroy

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