May you have peace.
You are dancing around saying that I don't really deceive my wife because she "knows" but doesn't want details.
I'm "dancing around"? Actually, I was only trying to give you… and her… the benefit of the doubt.
Actually, she knows
There you go - she knows. True, she may not know every detail, but I gather she won’t be blind-sided.
asks for details, but I refrain.
Well, okay, that’s your prerogative. What you CAN do… and SHOULD do… is not always the same thing.
Now you will "judge" me as I hear you judging in the comments you made.
I do not judge you at all. I don’t even know you, personally, and wouldn't do so even if I did! You “hear” judging “in my comments” because you don’t know me, personally. That is one of the great follies with the communication of this sort (typewritten): one THINKS one hears inflections, emphasis and tone that may actually not be present. We can, each of us, forestall that by giving the writer the benefit of the doubt with regard to the true INTENT they wish to relay. For example, I have never raised my voice in my life. Never. In fact, I very often have to repeat myself when speaking because people often can’t hear me (I am described as “very soft-spoken”). The loudest I get is when I am speaking on the phone or one-on-one (except in a restaurant, where I have actually irritate dining companions because I speak so softly) or in a small group, say 6 or less people. Yet, some believe me to be shouting from time to time. Nothing could be further from the truth.
My wife has shunned her sister for over 10 years.
My heart goes out to both of them. It is a shame, truly, and should not happen, at least for the reason it has: false christs teaching false doctrines.
My mother might shun me if my wife ever fully confided in her, or if the elders were told the things my wife knows.
Again, you intimate that your wife is not totally in the dark. As regards your mother’s reaction, this might be true, unfortunately. Sorrowful, but true. But even the Society prepared us for that, didn’t they? Wasn’t that part of what they taught us, to be prepared for when you stand up for the truth… or stand down for a lie… that people will oppose you? Even “members of [your] own household?” We went around teaching others that that would be the case if they came INTO the Borg – it very often is also the case when you leave it. But… we know this… don’t we?
My wife would most likely never listen to me about the WTS if I became DF'd- even if it was for her turning me in.
Two things come to my mind: (1) Your wife doesn’t really know YOU… and (2) that your wife is “married” to the WTBTS first, and you second. Which I understand, and am greatly sorry for, because that is one of the MOST heinous parts of their brainwashing – coming between a man and his wife. They have absolutely NO authority to do so! And it really is unfortunate, for that is NOT how the Christ said it SHOULD be (i.e., “what GOD has yoked together, let no MAN put apart.”) They TEACH that a wife is in subjection to her OWN husband… and that a husband should be LOVING his wife. And yet, many wives… and husbands SO forget this… SO forget it… because they have been misled with regard to it.
These are not easy decisions.
Indeed. I absolutely agree. AND… I do not suggest anyone who is not “ready” to do anything other than what they are doing. I only said that if one decries deceivers… and yet, one IS a deceiver… one is a hypocrite. This is the truth. Because, we cannot say, “He steals, so he is a thief; I steal, too, but my reason for doing so is more justified than his, so I’m not really a thief.” That is denial… a lie… and hypocrisy. What we CAN say is, “He is a thief; I hate thievery; so I will not steal.” OR… “He is a thief; I am a thief, too; so, I cannot… and will not judge him. Instead, I will forgive him, because I want to be forgiven.” OR “He is a thief; I am a adulterer. We’re both sinners. So, I will not judge him.”
I applaud your ability to be totally forthcoming.
No applaud necessary because the “ability” was not my own, truly – I asked for help and strength to do so once the need for doing so was revealed. Both times. And Each time the One who gave it to me reminded me that he had not only TOLD me what the outcome would most likely be. The second time, he prepared me even more by reminding me that part of the very teaching I had received from them involved this, that they had put it in my head for YEARS that the day would come when this would occur, but that they just didn’t tell me it would come from THEM.
I haven't read all your history, so perhaps you have already lost contact with loved ones for being upfront with them, or maybe you don't have a situation like that. Perhaps your loved ones did not choose to totally shun you.
That's not quite accurate: I lost “loved ones” for being “upfront” when I went INTO the Borg (my family was “devout” Lutheran and let me know that any family member who turned their back on that was “disowned”)… and lost still more for doing when I came out (actually, I was asked to leave…).
It just isn't as simple as that for everyone.
I totally agree, it isn’t simple. It can be devastating, in fact. I totally understand that. HOWEVER… hypocrisy is hypocrisy. Still. I am not asking anyone to judge or condemn themselves, or to judge or condemn anyone else. I simply responded to the question of what SHOULD we do… and why.
When a homeless person steals a wallet, most people want him to at least give it back, but what should be done with him afterward? What if it was just a loaf of bread he stole? Is the person who says, "He was starving, let him keep it" better or worse than the person who says, "The merchant shouldn't pay for his problems. Lock him up and give him a meal in jail." ? I can see both points of view.
I can see a third point of view: there but for the grace of God go I. I am well aware that I could have been in a position to think I needed to steal that wallet (maybe even for a purely evil intent)… or bread (maybe for food me and/or my children)… or God knows what. So, what should I do? Should I judge him as unworthy as a result? No, I should not. Of course, I should not. I, too, am a sinner (trust me!). Should I condemn him for his act? Again, of course not, for it is not mine to do. Should I tell him that what he did was stealing? I should. Because that IS what he did. And then, I SHOULD… ask him what he needs (money, bread, whatever) and if it is in my power to do so… I SHOULD give it to him so that he doesn’t HAVE to steal again. Because, after all, I really am… “my brother’s ‘keeper.’” Out of LOVE… I should help him in a physical way… while also telling him the TRUTH.
I don't ask you to change yours, but I wonder if you ask me to change mine:
I do not, not at all! I am not here to say YOU, OTWO, should do such and such. I only saying, if you really want to know the TRUTH, OTWO, you SHOULD do such and such. But you are a free-moral agent – free to do… and not do… whatever you please. If you wish me to say that decrying deceivers, while being a deceiver, is NOT hypocrisy, however, I am very sorry: I cannot. On the other hand, if you want me to say that even if you are deceiver, even a hypocrite perhaps, but I do not judge you, then I will most certainly say… again: I do not judge you… or anyone else… for anything. I only told you what is true.
I am done with this thread. I hoped I could understand both sides of this, but each time I read a thought from AGuest (nothing personal) on this, I cannot understand her dogmatic confidence that it must be the way she thinks it should be.
I am truly sorry you feel that way, truly. I am also sorry that you would rather me say words that would make you feel “good,” even if it meant I was deceiving you. That really originates with the Wicked One and so, I cannot do that, I am sorry. My love for you won’t permit it. You have been deceived enough, IMHO.
Enjoy debating on this thread if you want, but I won't respond. Sorry I started this and ran out, but it gets my blood boiling.
Again, I am sorry you feel that way; however, please don’t be sorry for starting the thread as there really is no need. And I am sorry that your blood is “boiling,” truly, for that was never MY intent. If this topic touched on you personally, then I can only ask that you take what you need… and leave what you don’t. Which really should be the case with EVERY thread posted here.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
