Sero: That's some proof to show the Bible is wrong. Can you present anything at all that shows it is the inspired word of the creator of the universe?
You make a common mistake in your line of argument Sero, you imply (actually I think you have been explicit in spots on that point) that if the Bible is false then God can not exist. The one does not necessarily imply the other. In fact the one does not imply the other at all. Contrary to some Christians (and I mean them no disrespect, if they end up being right it it does not affect me) I do not believe the Bible is THE revelation, but a book ABOUT the revelation of God to man. As such, it is a historical document reflecting the flaws and prejudices of ancient peoples (this does not make it untrue in essence). Many passages anthropomorphize God, assigning him human attributes, like getting angry etc. This is not really God, but what man saw of God in a more primitive state. The account of Creation was describerd in a cosmology that primitive middle eastern societies could understand. Our cosmology has evolved! But the core fact that the Universe was created and that Man exists in a state of separation from God does not. And we see a progression of mankind's understanding of God in that book. The revelation is progressive. If you don't believe me, compare the understanding of God in the first books of Scripture with those towards the end. Big difference!
The simple fact is that we humans, regardless of time or place or race or language or any other factor, have universally developed one or another form of religion and a belief in the supernatural. Humans of all religious traditions have had an encounter with something other than the physical, and they have attempted to develop a systematic understanding of that encounter, of that other realm. That itself is highly suggestive that there is an ultimate reality that we call God. To suggest otherwise is to essentially believe that the 98% of humanity that you do not belong to, the humanity that believes in something, is irrational and stupid.
Cheers
Burn
Staying a Christian Upon Leaving
by serotonin_wraith 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
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BurnTheShips
I believe religion is holding us back Wow, it really held these Christians back:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science -
serotonin_wraith
Let's imagine what this thread may have looked like if Thor was the most popular god in the world today.
I believe in Thor, because how else would all those clouds get in the sky? They can't have just come from nothing! Look at how complex they are, there must have been a designer. Look at the thunder and lightning too, that's got tremendous force, and that shows just how powerful Thor is. I was fooled into joining the Thor's Witnesses- that group isn't serving Thor correctly. But now I'm free and I have a special bond with Thor.
Thor has been disproved. We already know why we get clouds and thunderstorms.
No, you can't disprove Thor.
I can. Here is a site showing how clouds form ...
The water cycle is just a theory. Clouds can't make themselves!
It is a fact.
The scientists have it completely backwards. Clouds make water, water does not make clouds. What idiots! Look at how beautiful clouds are. How could something so beautiful have come from a natural event? We all know the story- Thor got mankind to name all the different kinds of clouds. That's in the Book of Thor.
99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% and more of all clouds that have ever been are now gone!
Thor has his reasons, who are you to question what he does? Are YOU Thor? You self righteous Thor denier!
Can you please explain how we get steam when water boils in the kettle?
...
I have faith in Thor. I don't NEED any evidence. That's what faith is. Duhh! Besides, what's so bad about believing in Thor?
It's not real for one. At some point we're all going to have to stop believing in Thor.
You'll be sorry when you end up in Thor's hell! Just you wait!
Thor has been disproven. Look at the evidence. Here's another danger for you- (I'm not sure how many dangerous things have to be pointed out when belief in something that's not true is reason enough to want it stopped to begin with but...) there are Thor worshippers trying to get the teaching that Thor makes clouds and controls the weather taught along with the water cycle teaching in school.
Well the water cycle hasn't been proven so why not?
It HAS been proven! I have already shown you the evidence!
Well, my whole family believes in Thor. I know Thor is real because of what I've seen in life. He has given me signs personal to me. When I wanted to go out it was raining, and then all of a sudden Thor let the sun shine through and the clouds disappeared, right in front of my eyes! I can't tell you how many times that has happened in my life! It strengthens my faith in Thor. How come so many people have had experiences like that?
Millions of people in the middle east believe in Zeus and think he uses the weather to help their crops grow. Many have seen shapes in the clouds that mean something to them personally.
Zeus worshippers are wrong. It's only the fastest growing religion because they are having so many babies. They have no proof for Zeus. Anyway, why are you forcing your beliefs on us?
I'm not. I've written this down in a thread on a forum and you have chosen to click it and read it. Nobody has forced you to do anything.
SW, I think you are looking for a reason to believe in Thor. I hope one day Thor speaks to you and lets you know he exists.
Riiight.
You only want others to think like you do because it gives your beliefs backing. That's why you're going on about it. Don't forget, you're only 25. Wait until you're older and wiser. I am going to pray to Thor for you tonight.
I appreciate the gesture, but which part of Thor has been disproven isn't sinking in? Thor isn't real because you want him to be real.
Look, belief in Thor gives me comfort. I need to know there's someone controlling the weather. Otherwise, anything could happen.
What, like a hurricane that kills thousands of people?
That's rare, and it's all part of Thor's plan. You have to accept there will be bad along with the good, otherwise how would we even know what good is? We can appreciate all the good the weather brings because we have an opposite to compare it to. Makes perfect sense.
Why isn't anyone looking at the evidence?
SW, the smarter Thor worshippers today accept the water cycle theory. It is true that the weather controls itself, but this is exactly how Thor set it out. He started the ball rolling, as it were.
Then why does the Book of Thor say Thor controls all weather at all times? Why does it also say clouds came before the Earth, when modern science shows they came after the Earth formed?
That cannot be taken literally. It is a metaphor. Not all of the Book of Thor is to be taken literally. Progressive Thor worshippers understand this. We are smart.
I don't know how you got THAT from the Book of Thor.
SW, I agree with all of your comments, but these people have faith. Something you may never understand. I don't think you should be trying to get people to abandon their beliefs and replacing them with your own personal opinions.
They are not my personal 'opinions'. It is reality, backed up with mountains of evidence that people are refusing to look at because they can't let go of Thor. Zeus worshippers and Thor worshippers have been at war for a long time, and we now have the power to destroy the planet. Unless people speak up and address EVERYONE who believes in these disproven gods, we may not survive.
That's not going to happen. Thor wouldn't let this planet get destroyed!
I feel like screaming, I really do.
Just popping back to say I know Thor is real, and I've heard enough of this Thor denier 'crap' over the past few years, and I can't change because I have faith. I'm sorry if that offends you.
I'm going to be polite because you are 80 years old, and out of everyone here you'd probably have the harder time looking at a lifetime of Thor belief with a rational mind. The evidence for the water cycle was around years before you were born too, unfortunately. You have lived with the wrong worldview, but I'm trying to make a difference so that our children won't live a lie too. Thank you for your time.
That was condescending SW, she is a good person and she doesn't feel like she's lived a lie. Many Thor worshippers live wonderful lives and do some amazing things for others. Look at all the smart Thor believers.
The reasons for doing good things was already there. Belief in Thor is not needed. Look at all the smart Zeus believers.
I admit I was fooled once when I was with the Thor's Witnesses, and I truly believed I was going to be with Thor in paradise. Even knowing I am quite capable of having the fog pulled completely over my eyes, and I'm glad others told me what was real in order for me to escape and see what I believed was false, I'm still going to give you a hard time for what you're trying to do.
I know I'll get no thanks from you, but perhaps future generations will look back at this time and thank all Thor deniers for having the courage not to respect Thor belief and instead to speak up and try to show people it is false.
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Wouldn't it be incredible if this was the type of situation we found ourselves in?
Oh.
Wait.
This IS the situation we're in.
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I'll answer all the points from Christians later, or maybe tomorrow. I feel depressed. It would probably match what was in the Thor situation anyway. Just swap a few things around and you may see my answer to you.
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lalliv01
SW: I feel depressed
SW, I hope I didn't contribute to your felling blue, dispirited, depressed. I truly do enjoy your intelligent,thoughtful postings.
I sometimes play the antagonist in order to get answers, you surely do have answers and I thank you for them. I sense
you've done a lot of studying and, to me, you don't come across like a poster that is not reading the responses from the
other "amigos" and does not bother to answer their posts, to the contrary, you answer most,if not all, I appreciate that.
SW, don't worry,be happy. I heard that somewhere.
About the thread: Staying a Christian Upon Leaving. I'll think about that tomorrow.
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jgnat
OK, Serotonin, I'm going to take another run at this. This is my attempt to shake hands across the great divide.
It is obvious that you consider anyone who believes in a divine, all-powerful being to be bound to a fabrication. Would you consider all fantasy to be 'bad', simply because it is a fabrication? Someone once said that more truth can be said through fiction. I tend to agree, especially since I've been introduced to the works of Dostoevesky. Besides us being rational human beings, we also have a vivid imaginary life (well, most of us have rational and imaginary bits). If we don't get enough during the day, our unconscious dumps out a few more psychidelic bits during the night. So we need it. If fantasy is not all bad, what parts of fantasy might be helpful or useful to mankind? I maintain that such stories as the age-old hero-vs-villain story as ancient as Greece and as modern as Harry Potter, can inspire entire generations to noble deeds. Nobility is good. Not too shabby for a bit of imagination.
I think this is worth talking about because you are now depressed at your inability to use reason to sway the faithful. This shouldn't surprise you, though. It's not reason that keeps us faithful.
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serotonin_wraith
Thanks jgnat,
I'm okay. It kinda hit me writing the Thor post how depressing the situation seems. I think you would be depressed too if 80% of the most powerful country in the world believed in Thor. If you say there are no reasons to believe in Yahweh, then you yourself are putting him on exactly the same footing as Thor. But I expect you think there is a difference. To you there is a difference, I understand that. In your head there is a difference. But there is not actually any real difference, which you admit when you say there's no more reason to believe in one over the other. You could read that paragraph over and over and I don't think the penny would drop.
If the US president said tomorrow morning he had started to believe in Thor, you'd probably spit your coffee out. Why? Because you think there is a difference. One is real to you, the other is obviously false. But when asked to show the difference, you can't. You even say there is no difference. So why the contradiction? Either there is a difference, and you could share that. Or there is no difference, and all gods are true, or all gods are false. If one god doesn't have a stronger foundation than the others, then they ALL fall like dominoes. Yours isn't left standing, because there is no reason for it to.
You say "It is obvious that you consider anyone who believes in a divine, all-powerful being to be bound to a fabrication" and the funny thing is, you agree with me, just as long as it's belief in the thousands of other gods and not your own.
I love sci-fi / fantasy. It can certainly open up our minds. Plenty of good can come from it... (and you may be able to guess what I'm going to say here) ...but we do not consider it good to actually believe it happened! Is it good for someone to really believe the vulcans are watching us, or that a secret ring under Cheyenne mountain sends military personell to other planets? It's a no-brainer, we see that kind of belief as mad, and rightly so.
Having a warped view of reality is a danger in itself. That's the bare minimum amount of danger belief in things we can't prove can have on us. If children have imaginary friends we say that's cute, but what happens if they don't give up those friends as they get older? Do we get them professional help or do we say 'ah never mind'? The answer probably depends on whether or not we're religious.
Are you happy that humans broke free from believing in the thunder god, or the sun god? Would you have been happier living in a world where 80% of your country still believed in them? Something must have changed back then when they gave up those beliefs. Reality finally won out, thankfully. Faith would have kept us all worshipping rocks today if it hadn't been ignored in the end.
I'm optomistic because there does seem to be a change now. People are seeing reasons are failing, and they aren't always using faith then. I'm in a country where only 10% of people go to church, and I doubt that number's ever going to rise again. I saw a poll recently that showed 25% of 18-24 year olds in the US now consider themselves atheist. It could be because these kinds of debates are having an effect.
I know you may not like to hear this, but I do hope to see the day when people who believe in Yahweh are treated exactly the same as anyone who believes in Thor nowadays. Afterall, there is no more reason to believe in one over the other. Reason doesn't come into it.
About this bit from before:
So, if you were concerned about overpopulation and believed that anyone having more than one child is contributing to the world's demise, would you chastize mothers of more than one child? Why or why not?
I would not, because these children cannot be put back in the womb and I wouldn't want them killed, so what good would it be to repeatedly tell the mother they haven't helped us? With beliefs, we can change these. We all used to believe in the teachings of the JWs and now look at us. Our change of beliefs helped us, we stopped believing in those false comforting things and we stopped supporting a system that leads to suffering for many people around the world. The change may have been hard, but we're happy about it now. I don't think any of us would want to still be living a lie- we wanted what was real instead. It was more important than a fantasy. But replacing one fantasy with another? No thank you.
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startingover
S-W,
Don't get discouraged, you are having more of an impact than you may think. It was discussions like this that first let me see what was really going on in this world. There are some people that have had some experience (whether real or just a quirk in their brain) which makes them believers, but I dare say there are many more out there who have not had any such experience, and believe just because of where they were born or who they were born to. If any of those are reading this interchange and are at a stage in their life where they are ready to really think for themselves, your arguments are going to impact them. .
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writetoknow
This whole post is about a suject that has raged for thousands of years. I could start postings today and until forever the quality studies that have shown God's word as truth.
But as any reasonable person can see from comments in this thread it would be discluded as junk. On the other hand, there a people that can post forever things they believe disproves the bible and it would not matter on bit to a person that has a relationship with God and Christ.
There is a river of hate held for Christian teachings veiled very thinly dispite being cloaked in nice platitudes display in many of these post. The person trying to disprove "Faith" take on a superior attitude and a condescending veiw of people of faith. When they are talk to the same way they simply can't understand it? They make comments about my mom is but one of many points when I came back with judgment it was a real insult.
The point is these imaginary agruments that one concludes are going to save mankind from religion is a world of unreality for people that have based their whole life on doing good for other because they love God. It is a direct insult to men and woman of faith that have given their life for others and sacrificed time money in service for other to concluded their acts of faith and love is done because they are too weak minded and uneducated to understand what they are really doing. Moreover, it is a sicking insult to the thousands of faithful Christain that lost their lives at the hands of the Romans and cruel dictators of our recent world to state they were fools for doing so.
Anyone stating such falacious reasoning has never stood in the shadow of great people of faith or they would be ashamed of themselve of such ulgy thoughts about them. A person of no faith cannot see God having a personal relationship with His children the loving and kind care He has for them.
People all over the world turn their back on every sort of relationship from marriage to children firends, family and bosses. Yet when some one states they have walked with God for years and love him as their best friend and have a personal relationship with God. People like some on this post think a person is uneducated and to stupid to know what a relationship is. That my friend is disrepect and condescending and a insult to people of faith.
Furthermore, people on this post that have walked with God longer then most have been alive assume they are old fools and have done so out of being mislead. I promise you this one day you will long for those people to be a part of your life. They are rich with love and wisdom through their faith in God. People have throughout history thought if they could just drag something down how much better their world would be. I have witnesses it in my own life time all this hate for people that love God.
Anytime you drag anything through the mud right or wrong the mud get stuck in your throat and on your clothes. Every fool thinks he is saving the world in his own time the diferent is real Christain no the only one that can save this world.
I am further sadden that some think because JW's were wrong or they were wronged by them as I was that a person has no faith in God. Some of us strengten our faith and devotion because of those trials of being a JW. If those same people were honest with themselves it was their need to worship men and not God that put them with in the ranks of JW's. Anyone wanting the truth not worship of man will see it simply by reading the bible and searching for the truth about God.
There are hundreds of red-flags we chose to ignore the fear is we let ourselves be mislead and that is why so many are easy prey for post like this.
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writetoknow
Matthew 8:5 “Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 8:6 saying, Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.
8:7 And Jesus said to him, I will come and heal him.
8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.
8:9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it.
8:10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!”The story of the believing centurion is probably the best example of great faith in the New Testament. Jesus was so impressed with the centurion’s faith, he remarked that he had not found such great faith in Israel — the entire Jewish nation. One might think that such faith should have emerged from one of the religious leaders of the day, such as the Scribes or Pharisees, most of whom had been students of the scriptures from their early youth. But this man was not even a Jew, but a gentile. To make matters more unique, he was a soldier in the Roman army, whose military occupation of Palestine was viewed with disdain by most Jews.
Ironic as it may seem, it isn’t always the religious leaders, ministers, or theologians who aspire toward spiritual things. Often, it is the unsuspecting layman, the housewife, the farmer, the soldier or other humble, common people who demonstrate great faith in God. We must never lose sight that the Gospel is a simple message which has no respect of persons, nor requires any special credentials to believe it. The legacy of the centurion is recorded without benefit of his name, but the title of his rank tells us that he was an officer with authority over 100 men. He was probably already a believer when he approached Jesus, seeing that he expressed such unusual comprehension of Christ’s authority and identity (Matt. 8:8-9).
Note that at no time did the centurion actually ask Jesus to heal the servant. He came to the Lord with a somber report of his servant’s suffering, but stopped short of making any request for healing. Apparently he was trying to assess the Lord’s will in the matter, awaiting his response to the crisis at hand. Perhaps he was hesitant of how Jesus would respond to the request of a non-Jew, especially since he was a soldier in the unpopular Roman army. Or maybe he wondered whether Jesus would even consider taking the time to help a mere servant.
Without hesitation, Jesus voluntarily offered to the centurion, “I will come and heal him” (Matt. 8:7). There was no more question whether it was the Lord’s will to heal the servant. Not only was Jesus willing, but by his own suggestion, was ready to go out of his way to the centurion’s home to perform the healing. What encouragement this must have been, to sense Jesus’ compassion, to witness His eagerness to bring relief and healing to a poor sick soul of low estate.
The centurion’s humble, confident response to all this was most remarkable. In essence he said, “Lord, I’m unworthy to have you as a guest in my home, but because I am a man with authority and am acquainted with giving orders to others, I understand your authority, and know that all you have to do is speak your word and my servant will be healed” (Matt. 8:5-10).
From the account of the centurion, there are four important principles which we learn about great faith:
(1) Great faith begins as a follower of Christ, knowing him personally, realizing his divine authority.
It is obvious that the centurion came to Jesus with an unusual perception of Christ’s position and authority. It is likely that he had been an observer and a follower of Jesus for some time. This indicates that the first step toward a faith which results in answered prayers, is to be a follower of Jesus Christ. We must have a proper relationship with Him, which enables us to approach God with the confidence that our heart is surrendered to the purpose of his will. Not only as our savior, but as Lord, our beloved master, whom we follow and serve with all our heart, endeavoring to keep his commandments and do those things which are pleasing to him. As the scripture says, “Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight” (1 John 3:21-22).
(2) The motives of great faith are pure, and are in harmony with the will of God.
The centurion boldly brought his need to Jesus to find out what his will was concerning the afflicted servant. He was not presumptuous or demanding, but reverent and submissive. As for his motive, his concern was not for himself, but over the suffering and need of someone else - in fact, a mere servant of whom were often considered the lowest class of people.
It is necessary that we ascertain the will of God in respect to our desires and requests. The scriptures clearly indicate that God answers those prayers which are in accordance to His will, not just our own. To have faith’s assurance for the desired results of our prayers, our requests must be based upon the criteria of God’s wants and desires. Prayer should not be viewed as merely a way to obtain our wishes, but a means that God uses to perpetrate His own desires. The Bible says, “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15).
God’s will is revealed through the record of His Word to us, in the Bible. We can possess faith for anything promised to us in God’s Word, and if we want God’s provisions, it is necessary for us to bring our needs to Him. James said that we “do not have because we do not ask” (James 4:2). But he also warned that some prayers will go unanswered because of improper motives: “You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures” (James 4:3). Lust is a carnal, self-willed, evil desire of the flesh, and one of the major reasons for ineffectual prayer. Are most of our requests based upon our own selfish interests? Materialistic wants? Or, is our faith directed toward winning lost souls to Christ, praying for the sick and afflicted, or the needs of the poor and homeless? Our motives in relationship with God’s will must be major considerations in our faith.
(3) Great faith has a humble heart, cognizant of the grace and compassion of God, whereby He loves and blesses us.
There was no doubt of the sincere humility of the centurion and his apparent high esteem and honor, placed in the person of Jesus. He confessed his unworthiness, his lowly undeserving status for Jesus to even come into his home.
The scripture states that “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble” (James 4:6). The word “humble” means self-abasement. We are totally dependent upon God, His mercy and His strength. What God does for us, in response to our requests, is not because we have earned or deserve anything. What God does is because of His love and grace (unmerited favor) manifested through the redemption of Jesus Christ. He tells us that when we are in need to come unto the throne of His “grace” that we might find His help. The Bible says, “Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need” (Heb. 4:16).
(4) Great faith has a complete trust in the dependability of God’s Word, and accepts it as fact above any other evidence or circumstance.
The centurion was so thoroughly convinced of the authority of Christ’s Word that He did not find it necessary for Jesus to personally visit the servant. He felt assured that if Christ would only just give the command, the healing would respond. He did not need to see anything or feel anything, but was willing to rest solely upon the premise of the spoken Word.
Such were the characteristics of Abraham’s faith, who believed God’s Word of promise, even though all natural circumstances were against him and there were no signs of the promise for 17 years. “He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform” (Rom. 4:20-21).
God’s Word is the very basis of our faith. His Word is the source of all creation, and nothing can withstand its power or force. His Word is absolutely trustworthy, in fact more trustworthy than the things of this world, which we can see or perceive with our senses. The believer must surrender his total confidence to the Word, even without any shred of visible evidence, or even in spite of contrary evidence.
May God encourage you to follow these principles of great faith!
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jgnat
Serotonin, I thank you from the depths of my heart for engaging me respectfully. I am glad I attempted some reconciliation across that "great divide".
But there is not actually any real difference, which you admit when you say there's no more reason to believe in one over the other.
I wouldn't conclude that just yet. It's only, as talking to an athiest, I understand that you see no difference. I cannot prove God's existence, because my experience is personal. My inability to prove it to others makes it no less real for me.
Or there is no difference, and all gods are true, or all gods are false. If one god doesn't have a stronger foundation than the others, then they ALL fall like dominoes.
That's only if reason reigns king. In my universe that internal compass, that internal vision of all that is good, right, true and just, is worthy of worship. I think a belief in a just and good God helps people rise above themselves. If there is only reason in a dog-eat-dog survival-of-the-fittest world, where is restraint? Where is good? What stops the individual from spreading their seed at the cost of the entire community?
....It is obvious ... be bound to a fabrication" ....you agree with me, just as long as it's belief in the thousands of other gods and not your own.
I do not believe that anyone who believes in a divine, all powerful being to be bound to a fabrication. In my example, I stepped across the "great divide" and took your position. I tried to show that even in your position there are benefits from believing in a benificent God.
You have also made an assumption that I have taken the "traditionalist" view that if my God is true, all others are false. But I am firmly not a traditionalist. I, like you, prefer objective truth. I am quite willing to drop a belief that does not conform to observation. I rather believe that if there really is only one God, that if someone has chosen a religion different than mine, there must be a veneer of human perception coloring his view. As there must be over mine..."in a mirror darkly".
I love sci-fi / fantasy. It can certainly open up our minds. Plenty of good can come from it... (and you may be able to guess what I'm going to say here) ...but we do not consider it good to actually believe it happened!
I would rather say that sci-fi has shaped our future. It could be argued, for instance, that hospital diagnostic beds are a direct result of a team of writer's dream for the future. The deep desire to preserve our earth, our vulnerability in the universe, I think, also comes from our looking to the earth from space. In an odd way, we look at ourselves more honestly these days, instead of looking outward to the universe for our answers. The Star Trek episodes gives us a hopeful future where humankind has overcome it's destructive divisiveness, disease and poverty are eradicated. Are these not principles worth following?
I wonder if you have been spending time with too many literalist, fundamentalist Christians. We're not all that, you know. It's sort of the way I enjoy this board. I don't take all it has to offer as good for me. I enjoy the meat and spit out the bones.
If children have imaginary friends we say that's cute, but what happens if they don't give up those friends as they get older? Do we get them professional help or do we say 'ah never mind'?
This is likely my top peeve with those who have chosen reason over fantasy. A vivid imaginary life is absolutely necesarry in the development of children. As adults, we use our imaginations to test out alternative outcomes. It is good! I would maintain that use of our entire minds, not just our reason, is good for us.
Reality finally won out, thankfully. Faith would have kept us all worshipping rocks today if it hadn't been ignored in the end.
Was it reality or majority? I think North America lost a great thought when we suppressed the Native ritual to honor a slain animal. I think of the loss of the great herds of buffallo, the vast clouds of passenger pigeons who darkened the skies for days. What different country we would live in if the land had been respected as the Natives learned to do! What kind of indiscriminate killing, indiscriminate thought, destroyed all that!
J: So, if you were concerned about overpopulation and believed that anyone having more than one child is contributing to the world's demise, would you chastize mothers of more than one child? Why or why not?
S: I would not, because these children cannot be put back in the womb and I wouldn't want them killed, so what good would it be to repeatedly tell the mother they haven't helped us? With beliefs, we can change these.
What if the exiting JW has established a functioning, noble belief system after leaving? They do no harm to you, and they are happy, functioning human beings. Do you really believe your work is not done until all are stripped of all faith?
I would even maintain that for frailer older ones, they are better off in the society than out of it. To prove that their entire reason for being was a lie is cruel in my opinion. As long as sister Martha and sister Sally support each other, drive each other to the meetings, gossip about the "new ones", wonder at the new light, and send soup to sister Jane in the nursing home, what is the harm?