An Interview with JGNAT by Lady Lee

by Lady Lee 29 Replies latest members private

• 

  jgnat

  PART 2
  Lee: You have spoken a lot about how things are in your relationship. I appreciate that. Do you think your relationship is the norm? Or are other UBMs in situations where they feel blind-sided by the news that their love interest has decided to go back to a religion they know nothing about and and feel overwhelmed by.

  JGNAT:

  Though relationships follow common themes, I also believe that every one is unique in it's own way. I don't think we're normal. I don't think anyone is quite...normal. There are various ways one can end up in a mixed marriage. Mine is probably the easiest. He had no relatives pressuring him one way or another, and he is nominally JW. I am a mature woman with grown children, with very little to lose if it doesn't work out. I walked in to the marriage fully aware of what I was going in to. My husband did similar soul-searching, and is willing to live with the consequences.

  I've talked also about the difference of marrying someone, knowing the full consequences, and a partner who dramatically changes tack partway through the marriage. This is as traumatic if the partner becomes a JW as if one-half of a Witness couple changes his mind. Again, taking a secular example, what if a couple get married on the agreement that they would never have children, and one partner changes her mind a few years later? The entire foundation of the covenant they married on has been shaken.

  Then we have the lovelorn who have given their hearts to their partners, are ready to commit, if only they would give up this blasted religion. I think this last group has the best chance to walk away. You can try and convert your partner, but it may take years. In the meantime, your childbearing years are quickly slipping away. Besides, in the end you have to respect their free will. They may choose never to walk away. In the end you may have to leave them with their folly.

  So what if you are the one who has changed their mind? I strongly suggest you come up with a strategy before you break the news. I'll cover this in more detail in the "slow and subtle" question.

  If your partner has started studying, there are specific things you can do right away to try and slow down the conversion train. This is a far more insidious religion than it first appears. Don't openly challenge the religion, you will instantly grow horns and communication will be shut-off. Do ask to be kept informed of the materials being studied, progress, what they learned that week, and if they are considering baptism. Try and delay baptism if you can, but if it is inevitable, please do go along and watch. This will take some of the charm out of the event, and keep you involved with your partner. Delay having children until the two of you have sorted out how you will raise the children and if you would allow a blood transfusion. Though the danger is real, you must approach the situation delicately. I liken it to coaxing someone away from the edge of an unseen cliff.
  
  Lee: My mother married a UBM. She turned their marriage into a nightmare. He had no idea what he had gotten himself into. He would do thoughtful, loving things, like buying her flowers for her birthday or Mother's Day only to have them thrown in his face by a crazed woman telling him that he had no respect for her and her beliefs. Do you think this is a common experience among UBMs who have no idea what is in their hornet's nest?

  JGNAT:

  Hubby ruined a Christmas for me once. He went ballistic all over my extended family. On examination, the pressure to conform to his beliefs and satisfy my desire to be surrounded by family put him over the edge. It's taken a long time for us to recover from that single event.

  Frankly, I think your mom was a little nuts. Guys don't know what they are supposed to do unless they are bluntly told. She should not have expected her husband to know without explanation.

  These two examples illustrate, I think, how the advice in the "Secret of Family Happiness" book is grossly inadequate. The Witness halves of mixed marriages are to be patient and kind at all times, regardless of the treatment they receive. Their example is supposed to win over their recalcitrant partners. The pressure to answer, softly, all the time, is just too much for most folks. Witness partners "blow it" all the time.

  I figure if you don't know what is going on, get educated. It's the only way. The UBM's I know who have taken on the challenge with zest and flair are amazingly sensitive and aware husbands. Would we all be so lucky.
  
  Lee: If the UBM decides to stay what is the best approach to deal with issues brought up by the JW? Is a head-on or slow and subtle approach better?

  JGNAT:

  Over the past five years, I've been keeping track. Slow and subtle seems best. A few times, the partner has blurted out "I am sick of this religion and I want out," and to their relief, their partner has said, "Me too"! Much more likely however, the partner reacts in panic, thinking that the marriage is over. If the changing partner is not careful, they may find a suitcase on the lawn.

  Steve Hassan claims he can snap a "cultist" out of their funk in a few days. But many of the cults he has experience with have relatively fast conversion periods. The Witness conversion takes six months' minimum and consequently I believe, it takes longer to bring the natural personality to the fore. My estimate is that it takes at least two years of cautious effort to bring a partner around. And also, we have to remember, they may never come around.

  So how do you do "slow and subtle"? First, learn to read your partner. Document their natural personality. Celebrate and encourage that natural personality at every opportunity. "Sally Jane, you always...." "Do you remember when you...?" If you bring up a hot issue or inconsistency in the society, do it when your partner is most themselves. Drop the bomb, then quickly change the subject. Never directly confront the cultic personality. If you are a JW fading, gradually reduce your responsibilites without raising alarm. Reassure anyone who asks that you "still love Jehovah". If you are leaving and are the head of the household, start conducting bible studies. Gradually introduce independent thinking during the studies. Even if you disagree with the conclusions of your partner, celebrate their freedom to express themselves.

  In many cases, the congregation will do most of the work for you. Deep down, they are not a "loving" organization. If your family isn't peddling magazines any more, they will get mean. Wait for it and build on it, especially if your partner is in for relationship reasons.

  If your partner is getting involved with the Witnesses, don't give up your rights easily! Make them promise not to talk to the elders about your private affairs. Get them also to agree not to go behind your back. You won't forbid the studies, but you want to know if they are going on as well. This is very important for trust betweent the two of you. Make sure the congregation doesn't become a wedge in your relationship. Don't commit to regular attendance, non-interference, giving up holidays, or a full book study. Be neutrally interested, but don't be a patsy.
  
  Lee: Can you really change another person, if they truly believe? And if not what hope is there for the relationship to grow?

  JGNAT:

  The witnesses bandy that word around, "truth" far too much. How do you tell the difference between someone who "truly" believes and someone who "nominally" believes? Every Witness is required to believe it all, or else they are not Witnesses any more. When my husband is in full JW-mode, he spouts the "truth" like any good witness boy. But is this what he really believes? His actions say another story. I stick around to give his natural personality the best chance he can to fully express himself.

  I do my best to bring balance in my husband's life. But at the end of the day if he freely puts all of his ambitions on to the Watchtower boat, I'm gonna let him sink. It's his life, and his free will. If he ever walks away, I want to know it's because he wants to, not because of any manipulations on my part.

  On the other hand, getting back to the "extreme sport" example, should you change a person from who they truly are? Should you take them away from their passion and dreams? This is why it is much better, if you are in love with a Witness, to walk away. Ask him to look you up if he ever leaves the society.

  As for our relationship growing, it has to work around the elephant in the room. We're doing it. I'm learning lots about myself. I'm not nearly as altruistic as I like to think I am. There are needs the society is meeting for my husband that I cannot or did not supply.

  Lee: Any recommended reading?

  JGNAT:

  
  
  Because Life Goes On...Helping Children and Youth Live With Separation and Divorce

  http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/mh-sm/divorce/toc_e.html

  for UBM's with school-age children. This book is great whether you are separated or not. Learn to negotiate with your partner.

  Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves by Steve Hassan http://www.freedomofmind.com/

  Required reading for all UBM's.

  The Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking for Children by Dr. Linda Elder

  http://www.criticalthinking.org/

  Again, for UBM's with school-age children. The best inoculation for cultic thinking is to teach your children to think for themselves.

  The Secret of Family Happiness - Watchtower and Bible Tract Society

  Know thy enemy.
• 

  Lady Lee

  The Secret of Family Happiness - Watchtower and Bible Tract Society

  Know thy enemy.

  well that made me lololololol best laugh of the day but so true
• 

  fresia

  I am the female version of you're husband. I drifted away and married out of the truth, not once but twice. Like you're hubby I was offered a bible study and went back.
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  Lady Lee

  This is fascinating. Gives me a whole new perspective of UMBs and how difficult their lives must be. I know my step-father felt overwhelmed by the demands my mother made on him due to her religion.

  I know this mentality. The JW is right because they have the "truth" and everyone else must bow to those needs regardless of how it hurts anyone else or how valid the UBMs beliefs are.

  I can easily see how even if a couple is divorced but share children being a UBM can continue to be a struggle.

  An stressor point for me and my daughters is that their father who is still a JW truly believes he has the right to demand people to place his needs/beliefs above mine. When the girls got married I was forbidden to say one word to him. Both gilrs had to tell me to make the promise or he wouldn't come to the weddings. Total emotional blackmail. No wonder I had such a strong gut reaction to his demands.
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  greendawn

  Nice interview, the JWs are very annoying when they put down Christians when in fact they are not even christians themselves, but a judaic religion masquerading as christianity, though they claim that they are the most genuine expression of christianity. That shows how far their mind conditioning has gone. Strictly speaking their organisation is not even a religion but a business.
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  jgnat

  Expanding on another of the critical issues I identified:

  Raising Children

  For God's sake, get on the same page before you have any. The JW raising is a stressful, constrained life full of conditional relationships. If the child does not remain a JW, he may fear loss of his parent's affection. He faces the same terror if his parents leave. I've noted an odd disconnection between Witness mothers and their children, probably for this very reason. If one partner is not a JW home life may become a battleground, with the child in the no-man's land. I've seen even children as young as three instructed to tell the non-JW partner that they are condemned to death, pleading for the parent to join this "life-saving" organization. Don't let this be your child's fate.

  Your child may also need a blood transfusion at some future date. Work out with your partner if your child would be allowed a life-saving transfusion.

  Now, if you or your partner "switched sides" somewhere down the road of your relationship, you have no choice. You have to deal with your religious differences. There are ways to work it out, as divorced couples have to work out their differences the same way. I highly recommend the Canada Health book, Because Life Goes On...Helping Children and Youth Live With Separation and Divorce

  http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/mh-sm/divorce/toc_e.html

  Strive to reassure and listen to your children, refuse to put them in the middle, and patiently negotiate with your partner. You can provide needed balance in your children's lives by teaching them to think and make decisions on your own. http://www.criticalthinking.org/ has some literature geared to children. I find the graphics hokey, but the message is good.

  Never underestimate a child's ability to see sense. Children cannot or will not choose between parents out of loyalty until they are in their teens. It is also very common for children in their teens to work one parent against the other. Don't fall in to that trap, and don't "demonize" your partner. Be patient, and give the child time and the freedom to choose.

  If you are in love with a JW and you do plan on having children, reconsider committing to the Witness. Move on. The many ways the two of you could mess up the lives of your children, let alone the blood issue, I think is too critical to be left to hope and chance.

  UBM's, if you think I have missed a critical issue, speak up.
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  jgnat

  I recently received a private message asking for more information. It is so gratifying to me to know that my information is being read, and is useful. I love the feedback, let me know if what I say works, (or if it didn't, and why). We can all help each other get smarter when we work with our significant halves.

  I was asked where the link is to the questionnaire on Steve Hassan's site. I've never submitted it by the way, but I copied the questions to help me evaluate my own situation. Here's the link:

  https://www.freedomofmind.com/forms/caseevaluation.htm

  You may have to spend some time quizzing your partner to get all the answers. Take your time, and be thorough. You may get some new insights in to your partner, their motivations and dreams. That kind of dialogue is always good for a marriage.
• 

  jgnat

  Two more of the critical issues:

  What to do with the third partner in your bed, the Watchtower society?

  The Watchtower society infiltrates every part of a Witnesses' life, including the bedroom. A good witness, doing all that is required, spends more time studying, preparing, meeting, and working for the society more than any other activity other than sleep and work. Hopes, dreams, ambitions, and sexual acts, all are commented and circumscribed by the society. If a Witness gets in to trouble or needs advice, the society advises to go to the elders first; not the UBM, the elders. If there has been some conflict between you over society involvement, the Witness may have resorted to sneaking around, hiding the materials, and lying about where they are going. They may lie about having talked about personal matters with the elders.

  Instead of a marriage of two devoted people loving and supporting each other, the UBM is left feeling like a "third wheel". Where is the intimacy, the privacy, the trust? Who does their partner love more, the society or them? If the UBM pushes the matter, they may get the shattering information that they indeed, do, come secondary to meeting the society's demands.

  No wonder the UBM can feel abandoned. No wonder we feel like there's "another woman" in the marriage. Instead of a couple supporting and caring for each other, we've got a love triangle going on. Again, following the analogies I've given so far, UBM's can learn from marriages where there has been trouble with "the other woman". As a UBM, if you have come to the horrible realization that you're secondary to the relationship, how do you overcome the jealousy, the loss of trust?

  Too often, I think, as women, we concentrate on our rival. Let's face it, we'd like to rip her eyes out. But the fault, really is with our partner. I expect my man to be strong and loyal and resist temptation every time. Why did he fail? Concentrate on your partner and make him/her accountable for their actions. Above all, trust must be restored. No more sneaking around. In the context of the society, insist your partner be honest about his activity. It helps, I think, to take Steve Hassan's advice and be non-threatening about the society and your partner's cult personality. Be neutrally interested and curious about the organization. ONly nail your partner to the wall if he breaks your trust. At the very least, no matter how uncomfortable the information might be, you deserve to be in the loop. The two of you should know more about your relationship than the elders.

  It might pay to have a few secrets between you that the elders will never know about. Hey, there's enough taboo in the society that the two of you may agree that there are a few things the society need never know about.

  If she's a new study that is considering baptism, and she knows you are resistant to more involvement, have a talk about honesty and trust. I think the point of baptism is where many couples have that first breach of trust and the society's demands overtakes the UBM. This is also why I advise, if you can't convince your partner to delay baptism, to ask to go along. Don't let a secret baptism be the first wedge in your marriage.

  As you build trust and intimacy between the two of you, and you are the one who is kept informed of all the Witness activities (not the elders) you have a secure base to work from.

  Restoring Trust After The Affair Is Possible - Lilly Calandrello http://www.squidoo.com/survive-an-affair-infidelity-cheating/

  Negotiating holidays and family events.

  Around November, the society starts putting out literature and talks about "resisting pressure" from the "world" to participate in "pagan" events such as Thanksgiving and Christmas. Every Witness knows which activities are forbidden, what are frowned upon. Depending on their zeal that particular year, they may try and separate themselves from the event to retain their "spirituality". I am deeply resentful of the tone of these talks and publications, which imply that all the "pressure" from the world. Sure, I have a natural expectation to continue traditional family gathering times, but it's the society that relentlessly bombards the Witness with the do's and don'ts.

  I haven't been terribly successful budging my husband, so I'm open to ideas. I do know that ultimatums, agreements - even written agreements, and stubborness were dismal failures. I think part of my problem is that I have severly strong emotional reaction to any hint of separation from my extended family. My tiger comes out, and my eyes spit fire. I think if I reduced the emotional content in the dispute (keeping that cult personality calm) we might have a better time of it.

  As for weddings and funerals, hubby and I usually have a protacted negotiation before the event on what he will or won't do. I try and keep reminding him it is about the couple (for weddings) or the person just passed on (for funerals), and we can't lose sight of that. I find it offensive to attend a reception without the ceremony. The entire reason guests are invited to a wedding is to witness the vows before God. To show up for the meal alone, I think, is insulting. I won't allow it, and if I have to, I'll go alone to the service. Again, I've only had mixed success in keeping strife to a minimum. At some of the events when I needed him at my side such as my stepmother's funeral, my husband failed. Oh, yes, avoid another of my mistakes. Don't plead to the elders for moderation. All they did in my case is advise a stricter stand, and my JW hubby was firmly advised to get his wife in hand.

  The society itself encourages the Witness to be accommodating and non-confrontational. Their mild example is supposed to inspire "worldly" relatives. If the UBM puts up a Christmas tree for instance, the Witness partner may be a "consicentious objector" and simply not help in the shopping for decorations or trimming the tree. They may eat of the Turkey but not participate in the prayer. They may accept gifts, but not shop or wrap their own for others. And so on. This usually grates on the UBM as rank hypocrisy. But there it is.

  So I wrap Christmas around my husband, and he secretly enjoys it. Oh, yes, one strategy has worked well for my husband's personality. He loves to catalogue shop, and he loves to anticipate new purchases. In the UK, Canada, and Australia, a company Chrisco, delivers Christmas to your door. Subscribers pay a small fee weekly for a year, and Christmas magically arrives in green and red boxes. The catalogues are bright, colorful, and chock full of choices and options. We did Chrisco for the first time last year, to great success, and hubby is eagerly anticipating our second arrival some time in mid-December this year.

  For Halloween, my granddaughter and I carve a pumpkin together. We're one of the least decorated houses on the block, but I do have one tradition I keep going. Hubby has convinced me to go out to dinner on Halloween night, a compromise I can't say I regret.

  Thanksgiving is a meal, surrounded by my family. It's the breaking of bread together, the gathering together and talking, that I love the most, both for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Hubby tends to hang back. If he's particularly stressed from the "pressure" to abstain, he may burst out with something inappropriate and rude. That mildness mantle just doesn't sit well on his shoulders.

  I haven't figured out Easter for myself either, so it might get passed altogether.

  Ironically, my husband is least offended by Valentine's day, and never fails to get me a heartfelt card. Yet it has the most "pagan" origins of all the seasonal events. I personally think the Society's prohibition from family events is primarily intended to divorce Witnesses irrevocably from Christian relatives. The big prohibitions are Church weddings, Easter and Christmas.

  http://www.chriscohampers.ca/
• 

  Will Power

  great reading Jgnat! - I'll have to print this one, looks like deck reading with coffee.
  
  thanks so much for all your hard work and great advice.
  You might have noticed (or not) I have been trying yet another approach - sad it is still "an approach"
  yet I am encouraged more than ever.
  
  The life of a UBM is very complicated and unless one is willing to work hard to understand the dynamics, learn how and when to react or 'not' - there is a definite skill to it. And not one easily recognized or supported by general population - even close relatives who do not understand the kind of control the KH entity oozes.
  
  your friend in-deed
  wp
• 

  Lady Lee

  wow I don't know how I missed all the work you have done here jg.

  Excellent. Just excellent