An Interview with JGNAT by Lady Lee

by Lady Lee 29 Replies latest members private

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Thank you for inspiring me to this interview Lady Lee. I have the feeling we'll have some fun with it. I'll try and keep to your formatting style.

    Choosing life: Were your children grown and out of the house when you married? Also, was you husband a witness in good standing when you married? Not usually accepted by jws.

    JGNAT: Yes, my children were grown adults and I had flown the coop when I started dating my future husband. My husband and I married without the congregation's knowledge, and he was a witness in tenuous standing at the time. Accepted? We're the "untouchables" at the hall. I believe it is embarrassing, even, that I make more money than my husband.

    Choosing life: How does your husband handle believing that you will be bird food at Armegeddon or does he deviate from the jw beliefs when it comes to this?

    JGNAT: My husband doesn't think very hard. You have to remember there are very few JW's in his family. His beloved mama and papa, now deceased, were not JW's. He's been taught, and believes, that all good people get another shot at immortality when Jehovah chooses to reconstitute them. This is what he hopes for with his mama and papa. Concurrently, he believes I have the same "hope", given I die before Armageddon arrives.

    He was advised by a "loving" elder that he put his own eternal hopes at risk by marrying me. He sweated through many nights working through that one. He concluded he'd rather have a short time with me on earth than an eternity apart. Very loving and touching, in it's own deluded way.

    Awake&Watching: Was your husband an active dub when you met?

    JGNAT: Hubby was a lapsed JW when we met. He was neither disfellowshipped or disassociated. He simply walked away. Ironically, it was my own spirituality that inspired him to become active again. He sent away for some literature, and some brothers showed up at the door to offer him a free bible study.

    LOL at onacruse. You have an enviable position of actually meeting my husband and being able to provide an "outsider's" perspective on our marriage. On my hubby's part, you left an indelible impression. There's not a day goes by that you or your wonderful wife or your adorable dog doesn't come up in conversation. As for insightful observations on our marriage, keep in mind that I have some of my own on yours!

  • tula
    tula

    Thank you both for this interesting interview.

    I have a question for jgnat, please. Have any cong members put pressure on you to conform to anything specific or implied that non-conforming to certain things would affect your husbands standing in the cong? Have elders "exceeded their bounds" in trying to put their rules on you simply by your association?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    tula: Have any cong members put pressure on you to conform to anything specific or implied that non-conforming to certain things would affect your husbands standing in the cong?

    JGNAT: A few sisters have suggested that it is very nice that I am supporting my husband by attending the meetings. They also advise me and my husband that they "miss [me] at the meetings." None of these "loving sisters" has ever called me up to invite me out to coffee, though.

    tula: Have elders "exceeded their bounds" in trying to put their rules on you simply by your association?

    JGNAT: Only through my husband. Shortly after we were married, my husband tested the waters by suggesting to his study leader that he was thinking of getting engaged. The elder sent him home with a long list of scriptures. You know the ones, "do not be unequally yoked to unbelievers." The elders also suggested that Jehovah might not hear his prayers if he disobeyed so far as to marry an "unbeliever". They also suggested that he might not survive Armageddon.

    Hubby recently was accepted in to field service. The elder committee mildly suggested that he "take the leadership" in our home. He humbly agreed. Anyone who has seen our dynamics would understand how ridiculous this is. He did come home and give a shot at it, and I quickly convinced him it wasn't a good idea. He did some more deep thinking on the matter and came back and told me that our arrangement, though unorthodox, works for us. He also said how we work things out between the two of us is our business, not the elders.

    I think it is critical to work on the marriage bond first. When we have the two of us, trusting and supporting, we can take on the world.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Glad you were able to find this. I'll just bttt for others to read

  • tula
    tula

    Thank you for those answers, jgnat.

    What do you see for the future? Do you think your marriage will be able to continue always with this religious division? Do you foresee the pressure on your husband gradually creeping in more and more to test your marital boundaries? What about the oct. 15 issue everyone is talking about with the sexual politics? Will that add contention and interference if your husband allows WBTS to rule your sexual views?

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother
    at no time is an individual's opinion sought or desired. There is tremendous peer pressure to conform and speak only to the provided outline. Individuality is patiently but relentlessly stamped out.

    You can say that again ! Even the more individual answers to the prepared q's are discouraged , the seem to want just answers from the paragraph these days.

    Today I find myself a UBM..although I was an elder once. My wife soldiers on with total faith in the concept but falling out of love with the congregation.. I can vouch for much of what JGNAT says, now I see it from the other side

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Tula

    , your questions spurred me to post my comments on three of the critical issues I've identified, and to include another. "What to do with the third partner in your bed, the Watchtower society?:

    Opinions and boundaries respected

    I would say respect is the primary reason my JW husband are still together after nearly five years. Not that he is always keeps his end of the bargain, especially around the holidays. But the principle is there, and if cornered, hubby quickly apologizes. After five years, he's learned to respect the long, slow, painful, simmering anger of a woman wronged. Now, this may be a typical male response, but he seems to have condensed the complexity of a serious argument to, "don't let it get started". He'd much rather put it out quickly with a fast "I'm sorry." As I glare at him with slitted eyes, I may doubt his sincerity. But the apology has been laid softly on the table. How can I not pick it up?

    To help me describe the concept of boundaries, let's use an analogy. Say, for instance, your significant other is an extreme sport fanatic. He/she is so enamoured it is increasingly taking up more and more of their time. If you came on the board crying, "Help, his sport is taking over our lives!" the first thing I would ask is if you knew this before you got married. If so, how can you ask him to stop doing the one thing that empassions him and gives him joy? You walked in to the marriage knowing this would be a big part of his life. He would expect you to understand and incorporate his great passion in to your lives. If, on the other hand, she took up the extreme sport after you got married, you have a legitimate reason to sit down and ask her why, and why now? Don't expect her to give it up completely. Figure out what you can live with and what you can't. Negotiate a reasonable balance.

    Boundaries have saved my sanity and kept me from being overwhelmed. I recently used boundaries to help my daughter with a sticky problem. Naomi, my granddaughter, recently made friends with a neighbour. They were quickly inseparable. But the girl was soon making herself a nuisance, even whispering to Naomi to suggest she could stay longer, come along on family events and outings, and so on. My daughter's resentment built dangerously. I feared she would lash out and banish this poor child back home "until the end of time." I suggested boundaries. How much could my daughter tolerate this girl around? How often should they have sleepovers? And certainly, they should clean up after one activity before they skipped off to the next. I told my daughter to write it down then negotiate with Naomi what the limits would be. I've now come back from a three week vacation, and I asked how it was going. "Oh, it's much better. We've agreed to one sleepover a month, and Naomi says she's getting used to not having the girl over all the time." Mom sounded much calmer.

    The Witnesses regularly ignore boundaries. They ask intrusive, personal questions. Even if you have just met, they consider it their right to know what you do for a living, what your religious history is, and when you will be attending the meeting next? It is important to remember that you do not owe an explanation for every action. Remind yourself that these are very personal questions, and you are not obliged to answer them. You may answer, "Excuse me, but that's rather personal." Then compliment them on their hair or their tie, or ask about their children. Deflect.

    Now, the toughest thing for a UBM to do, I think, is respect our partner's choice. Even if it is to remain in the religion. We don't have the right to call it stupid. I firmly believe, however, that our demonstration of this sort of respect will pay dividends down the road, as we demand the same respect for our choices. "No, honey, Christendom is not Babylon the Great, we're not all headed for destruction by Jehovah's armies, and I love God just as much as you do."

    I believe that it is critical that the UBM demand respect. Speak up if you are wronged, and demand proper treatment. As hard as it is to do sometimes with the Witness crazyness, also give your partner the same respect. Keep the marriage healthy.

    Celebrating our partner's individuality and providing outlets away from the society.

    Learning to identify my husband's genuine personality and encouraging him to emerge, has been one of the more satisfying aspects of our mixed marriage. The concept of identifying the "cult personality" and the "genuine personality" is described in Steve Hassan's books on combatting cult control. His books, I believe, are required reading for the non-JW partner of the mixed marriage. Learn to read facial and tonal expressions of your partner to know which personality you are talking to. I only express doubts about the society to my natural man. I typically drop it is an innocent question and as soon as he gets defensive, I drop it. My intent is only to plant the seed, not to convert him.

    I'm riding on a domestic "high" right now, as we just recently returned from a three-week holiday. Though he did his best to keep his "spirituality" (cult personality) going, I pretty well had my genuine husband with me on the trip; pure, unadulterated, 100% goofball. He's a lot of fun to travel with.

    A common newbie mistake many UBM's make is to confront the cult personality directly with our newfound information. To our horror, our partner takes on almost a robot-like stance, and refuses to listen to our information. You've just triggered a fear response in the cult personality, and it took over. When I confronted my husband in tears, after learning from this board how insidious and dangerous the Watchtower can be, he kept repeating, "I know I have the truth", over and over again as if it were some sort of protective mantra. Afterwards, he looked at me differently, as if I were a devil who had grown horns. It took many, many months for me to undo the damage of that one night. You don't want to frighten the cult personality. All you do is drive the genuine personality underground, and all of a sudden you are living with one of those paper cut-out people who live in the magazines. Sure, you can debate and argue with the cult personality all you want. The responses, however, are all canned and predicatable. Who wants to live with a paper cut-out, a can, a shell of the person you once knew?

    So how do you bring the natural personality to the fore? I think this is one of the most exciting and fun aspects of being a UBM in a mixed marriage. You get to become a sensitive, thoughtful, and aware partner! Your goal is to find out as much as you can about the natural person. What are your partners hobbies, interests, and passions? What is it they most like to do when playing hookey from the society? You may want to answer the questionnnaire on Steve Hassan's website to help you work out who your partner is, deep inside. These are your clues to who your partner really is, and is how they are telling you they want to escape. Also, what was the primary factor that hooked your partner to the society? This is an unmet need. If you can find a secular alternative, they will feel safer leaving the society. My husband loves to go to the movies. A few years ago, he'd signal he'd had enough of the society for a while by suggesting we go to the movies instead. At the beginning, I reassured him that Jehovah understood, and he was still loved of God even if he missed a single meeting. Jehovah knew his heart. I don't have to help him with excuses any more. When he's ready to take a break, he just takes it.

    This is the second most exciting aspect of living with a JW. The longer they are away, the more natural they become!

    Will my partner always be a Witness, and if so, can I live with that?

    After years of watching mixed couples on the board, I've seen various success and failures. Some spouses manage to bring their partner with them. Yaay! I cheer their success and quiz them as to why it worked. Others, especially if the change is dramatic and unexpected, end in divorce. There's a diligent few, like myself, who continue to soldier on with uncertain results.

    Why do some couples come out together? Because the other partner was ready to hear. Sometimes they were more ready than their partner, but afraid to speak up. so don't give up hope. Miracles do happen.

    Why do couples split? For the age-old reason that their interests, goals, and desires are irreconcilably changed. Or fear takes over. Or the relationship is abusive.

    Why do we keep soldiering on? This was a tough one, and I realized at some point a partner has to evalulate if the effort expended is worth it. Because the bald truth is, our partners may never leave the religion. As in the extreme sport example above, we have to ask ourselves, "If nothing changed, could I live like this?" and, "What must I have to be happy? If those critical things were taken away, could I stay married to him/her?" I suggest a list to help sort things out. List those qualities that make your partner adorable and "worth it" to stick with. How many could you live without? If your marriage ever gets to the point where that critical needs list is not being taken care of, it's time to start working out an exit strategy.

    tula: What do you see for the future? Do you think your marriage will be able to continue always with this religious division?

    JGNAT:

    I'm a chess player, which means I have a plan for any contingency. If life zigs, I zag. If it zags, I go south. If it goes south, I go west. If it goes west, I go up. And so on. I'm no mind-reader, and I am an uncertain prophet. Even so, I don't imagine my husband will become more zealous over time. And after doing the evaluation described above, I am content with the way things are going.

    tula:

    Do you foresee the pressure on your husband gradually creeping in more and more to test your marital boundaries?

    JGNAT:

    I won't let it. I'm alert and persistent.

    tula:

    What about the oct. 15 issue everyone is talking about with the sexual politics? Will that add contention and interference if your husband allows WBTS to rule your sexual views?

    JGNAT:

    Using the strategies described above, I won't be warning my husband ahead of time that the WTS is invading the bedroom. It is enough for me to be alert and aware. There are some private things that my husband does not allow the WTS to interfere with. As long as I don't bring it up, he won't either. And he won't be telling the elders any day soon.

    BluesBrother, it's nice to have the validation of my experience. Thank you.

  • tula
    tula

    JGNAT, thank you for your in-depth perspective. I am sure that there must be quite a few "mixed marriages" on the board that will benefit greatly from your example and your candid answers.

    If you would please indulge me one more question, I would appreciate it.

    Are you able to share any of the information you read on this board with your husband?

    Is your husband open to discussing any major issues such as the NGO agreement, the "new light" changes, the failed prophecies, etc. Is he defensive about these things, perhaps seeing them as a challenge to his beliefs? Or is he open to looking at all aspects, even controversies, in order to deduce the truth for himself? Is he already deeply indoctrinated not to explore any information outside the realm of what the WBTS teaches?

    Thank you.

  • tula
    tula

    I know you answered some of this in the above, but what I meant, is that since some time has already passed, are you able to gradually bring some issues out more subtly now for discussion? Or is "religion" a taboo subject altogether now?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    tula:... is "religion" a taboo subject altogether now?

    JGNAT: I think our marriage would be much more peaceful if it was. I think many mixed marriages would be happier, if the subject was declared "off limits". In our unique relationship, however, we both prefer a few sparks.

    tula: Since some time has already passed, are you able to gradually bring some issues out more subtly now for discussion?

    JGNAT: Certainly. Not that there's much point, considering my husband's personality. He's not a thinker or a debater. Reason did not attract him to the witnesses, hope of relationship did. That means the key to getting him out is to take care of his relationship needs. All the debates and reasons in the world, all they do is provide him some light entertainment. As for the relationship side, I've done much to introduce him to a wide range of good, wise people who are NOT witnesses. If he ever brings up some stupid Witnessism, for instance, that all "worldly" people are slated for destruction, all I do is bring up some of these good, wise people. He then backtracks quickly. He cannot deny the evidence of his own eyes. Thanks to the generosity and friendship of people on this board, my husband has personally met, in order of appearance, Concerned Mama, Irreverent, Blondie, Simon, Angharad, Bikerchic and Onacruse. They were all gracious and tolerant of my husband. I've also introduced him to the Christian biker dudes from my own congregation.

    I recently burst out laughing when we were out for coffee with Bikerchic, when hubby mentioned that he was going to be cautious about his association. "Honey, you've met some of the top apostates in the world!"

    tula: Is he already deeply indoctrinated not to explore any information outside the realm of what the WBTS teaches?

    JGNAT: Sweetie, the society primes their studies to ignore outside information by the second study. Satan is introduced as the prime opposer to their "life-saving" information.

    tula: Is your husband open to discussing any major issues such as the NGO agreement, the "new light" changes, the failed prophecies, etc. Is he defensive about these things, perhaps seeing them as a challenge to his beliefs?

    JGNAT: He laughs, confident that the society has done it's careful research and that a proper answer can be found. At times, he's fantasized what it would be like to pitch me against one of the elders. I remind him I did that once already by sitting down to about six sessions with one of the sisters. She and I mutually agreed to end the study. I've reminded him that she did not have answers to my questons. I'm consequently "marked" by the congregation as a "goatlike one". I think deep down he knows I've done my research well, and really doesn't want an open confrontation.

    I just drop hints and things. "I'm not surprised they are asking openly for donations. They have a big pedophile lawsuit to pay for." I've also established a consistent reputation for knowing which publication or big announcement is coming up next. It's at the point where he comes home and asks me to guess. I've been right every time, and he laughs.

    I don't openly threaten his cult personality any more. I prefer having my natural man around.

    tula: Are you able to share any of the information you read on this board with your husband?

    JGNAT: I've always been open about my involvement here, and what it is about. I think it has paid off, since he cannot claim ignorance. He just can't conceive of the depth of quality information here, or the range of my involvement. I ask if he wants to know what is discussed, and he gives a resounding, "No! They're a bunch of apostates there!" Even so, he loves Leolaia's pictures and participates in sports discussions.

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