Is this the BEST of all POSSIBLE WORLDS? Depends on this...!

by Terry 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Otherwise, he is cherry picking, from his own reference, data which supports a conclusion he arrived at independently of that reference—a practice called intellectual dishonesty. I am eager to see where he plans to take his discussion, since he says at the outset that whether the original garden was the "BEST of all POSSIBLE WORLDS" "depends on this...!" Obviously, the world we have now is not the best of all possible worlds. None of us believe it is, except those few of us who give in to feelings of futility, so I hope he wasn't suggesting that the world we live in is supposedly the best of all possible worlds. I would think him a suicide risk if that were the case.

  I strongly suspect that needling the believers on the forum was his intent, as it often seems to be. The sad reality is that he tries to do so by misrepresenting the very account he is using as his basis for argument. He includes God, Adam, and Eve from the story, but edits out the serpent so that it appears Eve innately desired something that God was unwilling to give. That conclusion is not supported by the reference. In fact, the narrative flatly eliminates that conclusion.

  Auld Soul is our Greek Chorus today!+

  By seeking to reframe my thread you can use your version as a strawman.

  No thanks!

  If this is the best of all possible worlds we can thank the one who made this world.

  If this world was not made by anybody, but; is the result of random chaos we must expect it to be random and chaotic.

  If this world was made by a supreme being with nothing by justice and goodness at heart we would expect the humans made by him to be complete and not lacking. What Adam and Eve did, they did according to the nature this Supreme Being gave them. They sought what they desired.

  The serpent in the story denies DEATH is the result of eating the forbidden fruit.

  Only when the fruit is presented as the means by which the humans can be LIKE GOD knowing good and bad does the fruit become desirable in her eyes (Eve).

  Why believe the serpent rather than God? Logic dictates they cannot both be correct.

  The answer is this: the nature of the humans is such that they cannot but choose to be LIKE GOD knowing good and bad.

  Incidentally, "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die" is either TRUE or NOT true.

  Did the serpent tell the truth?
• 

  Terry

  The reality is that you have moved way beyond giving credence to such a simplistic story which attempts to explain the origin of human life on earth. Little Toe, your sparing partner, questions your motive, seeing this as another attempt to discredit the god of the bible.

  Actually, I'm presenting more of a Muslim view of God.

  Muslims do not believe in the Christian God of nice manners and predicatable personality.

  Muslims believe in a God who does pretty much whatever he feels like doing and you cannot judge his actions according to a predictable nature.

  An entity is what it is and ONLY what it is.

  I look at the result of creation from the standpoint of a more Muslim-like God and I see that this corresponds better to the description of Allah's nature than to Jehovah.

  If Allah God felt like making humans defective and then judging them by perfect standards this is more in accord with Paul's words in Romans 9.

  Allah makes pots and some of them are only worth breaking! Allah is..um..shall we say...inconsistant and you'd damned well better not complain about it.

  My motives are to create a dialogue whereby somebody can demonstrate to me that there is a reason for me to believe what I am missing in my life. I have a rapacious appetite for God and none on my menu!

  The God I had as a child and the God I had as a young man both failed utterly to fit into any reality I can embrace.

  I'm searching for a replacement.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Oh I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in these, but, oh well....

  Bravo Terry on your reasoning and use of logic. These aren't new arguements, but it does serve to reveal where thiests stand.

  For those of you here arguing who are Christian and/or thiests but don't accept the bible or at least the Genesis account, I think it bears mentioning that while perhaps your individual views as to the allegory of Adam and Eve might differ substantially from most Christians, the fact remains that most Christians, and most denominations ACCEPT the allegory of Adam and Eve as the explanation for sin, mans fall from the "grace of god", and why since then god has chosen to not deal with his now unholy creation. (please excuse the run on sentence.)

  Belief is just that. Belief. Little Toe debated me a while back and one point he made is that some people need their faith and belief. It isn't my intent to take that away. That isn't my point. However, it is a little disingenuous to answer a question with a question, thus changing the subject. If that is what one does best, why not start your own thread?

  The point of using the Adam and Eve account as an example is to show how flawed the logic is, and how mythical all of the events are. If Christians wish to accept Jesus and the bible, yet pick and choose what seems plausible, as they seem to do, then the denominations of Christianity need to address this. But the official dogma is to accept all of the bible as the unerring word of god. Lets not be naieve here and pretend that in the USA that rather loud group doesn't exist, shall we?

  I think the point is well made: IF GOD EXISTS THE WAY HE IS DESCRIBED, then he made flawed products and supplied insufficient data to his creation.
• 

  Perry

  My motives are to create a dialogue whereby somebody can demonstrate to me that there is a reason for me to believe what I am missing in my life. I have a rapacious appetite for God and none on my menu!

  The God I had as a child and the God I had as a young man both failed utterly to fit into any reality I can embrace.

  I'm searching for a replacement.

  I reccomend a dialogue directly with Jesus. Tell him how you feel.... and not just once. Tell him the extent you are williing to go to to receive enlightenment. Only at his "OK" can it be demonstrated to you that which you desire. You can hear God's voice, in the speech of others, the bible, billboards, in lots of places you'd be surprised. Be open with ears of faith to that.

  I told Christ that if I could, I'd raise an army and storm the gates of heaven itself to get it. I told him that I didn't know how to fight this spiritual warfare stuff, and that he must show me how to do it. I was orphaned by the WT, and he took me in.

  After I traded my life for his, it was kinda his turn. I made the right decision. Things are so much easier now, even though things are not really easier. Does that make sense? All things that I now experience work out for my good. I can see that now. It all takes time too.

  What do you have to lose? I mean I'm not advocating joining another church....although it is nice to hear others' testamonies of what Christ did for them and the places he is taking them now.

  Keep in mind that there is no judgement right now. That's for much later. There is no court at this time. Work it out, during peace time. Ask him for mercy and grace. Approach him man to man same as if you waked up to him in Galilee 2000 yrs. ago. You wen't alive then but I can assure you he is alive now.

  The issue you wrestle with is between you and him.... not between you and other posters.
• 

  Terry

  The issue you wrestle with is between you and him.... not between you and other posters.

  The body of Christ is people. (Like Soylent Green!)

  I could talk to Jesus until my navel turned to cinnamon, but; he's about as loquacious as Marcel Marceau.

  If Jesus' own precious chosen ones can't clarify things I have little hope the man himself will add much to the tale.
• 

  LittleToe

  Terry:

  Why don't you tell me which particular God we are discussing here...

  You mean there's more than one?

  My argument is often not that there's more than one God, but just that there's more than one subjective perception of Him leading to a variety of opinions. Unfortunately folks can get a bit antsy about owning their "creator", leading to all sorts of cat fights. Its a little bit like the two little boys arguing in the playground that their dad is better than the other's, without realising that they have the same dad by different mothers.

  ...and clarify your sources and we can continue.

  Personal experience, supported by the comparative experiences of a number of others (as occasionally found in musty tomes). I've had no voices telling me I must go and kill someone

  If God is your father he is the Parent of you, but; not your human parent.

  I agree, but I still question the validity of using it as a direct analogy.
• 

  LittleToe

  OpenMind:

  Am I calling this one right Gentlemen?

  Aye, although that having been said, AuldSoul hits the nail on the head by commenting regarding Terry's method:

  ...he is cherry picking, from his own reference, data which supports a conclusion he arrived at independently of that reference...

  ---

  Trevor:

  Well put. I especially liked this comment, especially the biot that I've bolded:

  A lot of your threads emphasis that there is only one actual reality. This is true in a scientific way but we all build our own paradigm of the world in our own minds and see any criticism of our belief or world view as a threat.

  I would posit that not one of us truly sees "reality", far less is able to explain/express it.

  ---

  Terry:

  Allah makes pots and some of them are only worth breaking! Allah is..um..shall we say...inconsistant and you'd damned well better not complain about it.

  This is IMHO one of your better points. With no rancour, my question remains as to why this is so, however? I would put it down to the subjective nature of the writers, wherein everything is accounted to God or the Devil, even where they have no direct hand in the event in question.
• 

  AuldSoul

  Actually, I'm presenting more of a Muslim view of God.

  Challenging Christians to explain a Muslim view of God seems especially misguided to me. Since I do not subscribe to the view of God you are espousing, I will refrain from playing your game by your undeclared rules.

  I am not into playing Terryball. You clearly had one objective in this thread: to win your argument at any cost, even to logic or coherency. Twist as you will.

  —AuldSoul