BFD, I felt the same way when I read what he wrote. Isn't that like saying, "I don't think fondling kids is a good idea either, but it sure beats raping them."
Shammatta"Disfellowshipping" Jewish Style
by AuldSoul 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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emptywords
I do agree with some of what slim has said, there are some that can be a bit over the top of negativity on the average JW on the forum at times, I myself have, but this forum is far fairer than some of the JW forums I had read on other sites. However there is also some very interesting and truthful posts that I have learnt heaps from and answered many a question that I needed help with. Whatever we are all entitled to speak our bit.
There is definatley elitism in the org and the main culprit's are the GB themselves, forever promoting their own following.
On the disfellowshipin the Apostle Paul did write 1Cor 5:13 to remove the wicked man from amongstoursleves. 1Tim 5:21 says "I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen anglesto keep these things without prejudgment, doing nothing according to a biased leaning." this is how it is suppose to work.
Unrepentent wrong doers are the only ones to be disfellowsiped. How does one know if a person is unrepentent. They the elders say it is holy spirit that directs them. I challenge that as a very close family member of mine was DF and was innocent, I know because I testified for them with all knowledtge, he was a fall guy, there were others involved, so where is the holy spirit, if these police like nazi's can turn up on your doorstep without informing you, vertually push youre door open barge into youre home, and in front of youre children accuse you of something or having knowledge of something without even a hello, we are here because. NO NO NO that is not holy spirit.
Now this is just one case. Goodness knows how many others, I know they treat ones unlovingly and judgmentally without any concern for the persons health or family. They should all read Ezekiel 34. And the GB should read Ezekiel 13.
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slimboyfat
Auld Soul,
Some critics of the OT would say, not only was the god of the Jews depicted commanding murder, but the invasion of Palestine was an early example of genocide. (The saving grace of course is the liklihood that events did not unfold as described in the OT) I dislike the the loaded language states use to condemn 'murder' while sanctioning state-sponsored 'killings' and 'executions'. The state wants a monopoly on the exercise of violence. I say it is one particular commodity it is time humans stopped trading in altogether.
I have never been an elder, nor anything more than a microphone handler. It seems odd that you don't think you need to have been an elder to make this accusation against the Witnesses, but my objection to your characterisation is said to be undermined since I have not been an elder. I did give a sort of background of myself while you were away. Here it is in case you are interested:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/137609/1.ashx
Slim
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slimboyfat
BFD,
It's simple. The choice was between a human being who murders for patriotic reasons, or one who does not speak with his mother for religious reasons. I made it clear that I agree with neither, but there is no doubt in my mind which is worse.
Slim
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emptywords
I think the GB suck up to the elders, everytime I hear the scriptures about princes of the earth (they use this to refer to the elders) Ps 45:16, Is 32:1....how special they are and will be even more so in the new system, Princes of the earth, I feel sick when I look around at a few of the elders in my cong; honestly it really so off.
They have to make them feel special because they have to do their dirty work.
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AuldSoul
I read the thread you linked to, sbf. I think I have intimately known and believed more active jw and ex-jw elders than you have known or believed, and THAT makes me qualified to request their opinion (which is what I did) as well as comment that I already know their answer.
I didn't request your response to that portion, because I already guessed your answer, too. Most people who haven't been elders and never were too closely attached to the religion through family and friends do not know the full extent of how demeaning it can be to have dealings with the organizational elite. You have routinely discredited such accounts, despite having no personal knowledge. I do have personal knowledge, through close observation of both friends and family who had dealings with them.
I also personally asked for an audience with the GB or with the Service Desk and was informed that they wouldn't talk to me. Classism.
You don't know anything about this particular matter beyond what you have observed from the periphery, and I mean the absolute fringe periphery. You said you never even had any deep friendships among JWs except your wife. You are the only one from your immediate family who is a JW.
Virtually all the Witnesses I met are very nice people...
Yeah, as if most people are complete jerks when you meet them (myself being an obvious exception). How many did you get to know intimately? In my case, I can answer more than 300 without reservation.
All of my friends and all of my immediate and extended family were JWs, including the men who stood with me at my wedding and the man who gave my wife away nine years ago (two of the four are now dead; one elder who committed suicide, the other died of heart trouble from complications during a surgery).
Most especially, sbf, I have lived through shammatta, you haven't. Maybe that's why I don't think you really know what the hell you are talking about on this issue.
You have researched a lot of books while I have lived what I speak about.
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AuldSoul
emptywords,
A lot of JWs and ex-JWs believe the GB sucks up to the elders. That was why I asked for their input on the issue. Nothing could be further from the reality. They placate and humor the elders occasionally, but the elders are constantly reminded of their place in the organization; a place FAR below the GB.
Respectfully,
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AuldSoul
I dislike the the loaded language states use to condemn 'murder' while sanctioning state-sponsored 'killings' and 'executions'. The state wants a monopoly on the exercise of violence. I say it is one particular commodity it is time humans stopped trading in altogether.
Beautiful. And if I'd posted this thread in POLITICS it might have some freakin' business appearing on this thread. As it is, your anti-war propaganda has spewed well outside its retaining walls. You are welcome to start a thread in politics discussing the issue you feel passionate about.
By-the-by, I am generally opposed to war as well. I don't know many humans who are generally in favor of war, unless they profit from it in some way. However, I also generally try to respect topic posters enough to attempt to stay on topic. You seem to be unencumbered by such concerns. This topic is not about the merits of war-mongering versus the merits of shammatta.
This topic is about whether shammatta, as practiced by Jehovah's Witnesses, is a weapon used to coerce compliance, or whether it is an expression of love. The fact that there are worse things in the world does not change the evil nature of this thing. Please take your political commentary elsewhere.
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AuldSoul
SBF: It's simple. The choice was between a human being who murders for patriotic reasons, or one who does not speak with his mother for religious reasons. I made it clear that I agree with neither, but there is no doubt in my mind which is worse.
It is simple. The choice is between raising distractions from the post topic that are of of a political nature or sticking to the topic. I agree with one of these, and I hope I have made it clear that there is no doubt in my mind which is worse.
YOU raised the off-topic specter of soldiers being worse. In the context of this thread, WHO CARES? This thread is clearly in the section of the forum discussing beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
In my opinion, for someone who has never experienced either to pronounce a doubt-free judgment of comparative severity is pathetic on many levels. You don't know what you are talking about, SBF. You know you haven't experienced these things, yet you lecture those who have.
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slimboyfat
Well it comes back to the start again, as I thought it might:
Psst! I already know the answer
That being the case, this is not really a 'discussion', and you are clearly irritated by my making it into one.
You right about the soldier thing, there is name for that sort of fallacy, I forget now, where you claim one thing doesn't matter because there are worse examples. So I withdraw that. I do not want to minimize anyone's difficulty extricating themselves from the Witnesses. I have see some of this at close quarters even though I have not been disfellowshipped, less than many and more than some no doubt.
Really what I object to on this forum and in this thread is the constant insistance that Witnesses are worse than others in how they treat people. I would say that the innate goodness of many Witnesses actually mitigates much of the usual inhumanity that organization necessarily entails.
I can understand you take it personally the GB would not give you a hearing. But honestly what would happen if it got out that they had given you an audience? Wouldn't everyone with a complaint want to take it to the top? Why one person and not another? Either you think you are very special or else you think many thousands get to speak directly to the GB. A more dispassionate appraisal might conclude that simple lack of time prevents GB members from listening to the concerns of everyone individually. There was an interesting transcript of a telephone call between Dan Sydlik and Gordon Ritchie online I noticed a while ago, which I thought was amazing because what other organisation the size of JWs would allow a call from a crackpot like him to get through to the top?
Slim