Seeing Patterns That Aren't There?

by hmike 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    hmike:

    As for having to allow for any and all other possible alternatives to God or Jesus, we actually know the origin of most of the other suggestions, or we know they are made up. In spite of what may be claimed, the origin of God or Jesus in history cannot be established. We may speculate; we may think we know, but we really don't.

    In that case, because we don't know the true origins of Thor, Ra, Zeus, Atum, Odin, Mithra, Allah, Krishna or most of the other gods worshipped throughout history, it's just as likely to be one of them behind it. I expect it's possible to find the origin of Santa, but the origins of things like faries and pixies, gnomes and trolls are about as hard to find as Yahweh.

    the connections made between events (the coincidences) are consistent with statements attributed to God or Jesus in the ancient texts

    It does say in the Bible that whatever you ask for, you will receive. (This makes it easy to attribute anything to the god of the Bible!)

    But I expect some unexplained things are not attributed to God, when maybe they should be in order to be consistent. For example, imagine getting home after a hard day, ready to tuck into a tub of icecream. You go to the freezer, but discover the icecream is gone. Everyone denies taking it, and you have no reason to think they are lying.

    Now, would you consider that God spirited away the icecream miraculously while you were out so as to prevent you becoming a glutton? We are commanded not to be gluttons in the Bible, so perhaps God is helping us out. Or instead, would it make much more sense to put it down to someone lying, forgetfulness or just a mystery never to be solved? I don't think any sane person would think God took it away, yet if the argument of God helping us out is to be believed, one cannot dismiss this obviously crazy explanation for the disappearing icecream.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Fascinating post, hmike.

    I'm saving this.

  • Mum
    Mum

    Your post reminds me of playing the slot machines. I live in Nevada, so I have done some research on gambling and gamblers. Yes, the machines are random, and there is no such thing as a "lucky" machine. However, many think there is.

    Nevertheless, the laws of probability do apply and do work. A few years ago, a bunch of MIT students went to Vegas and won a few hundred thousand $$$$ before the casinos caught on. They were allowed to keep their winnings but no more playing.

    If I recall correctly, Einstein said that God does not play dice with the universe, or words to that effect. However, most physicists nowadays would not agree.

    Waiting for the randomness to tilt into the favorable column for me,

    SandraC

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I looked at all of the letters in your post and found a message that says: "All bow before LORD SATAN"

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    LMAO @ Elsewhere!

  • hmike
    hmike

    Thanks to all for your interest. Without having anything definitive to work with or subject to rigorous scientific testing, anecdotal evidence—called personal testimony among Christians—plays an important role in growing (bringing in those from the outside) and fortifying (reinforcing conviction of those within) the church. I think it's worthwhile to examine and discuss this subject regardless of perspective.

    In that case, because we don't know the true origins of Thor, Ra, Zeus, Atum, Odin, Mithra, Allah, Krishna or most of the other gods worshipped throughout history, it's just as likely to be one of them behind it. I expect it's possible to find the origin of Santa, but the origins of things like faries and pixies, gnomes and trolls are about as hard to find as Yahweh.

    serotonin-wraith,

    I agree with you. I just meant to narrow down the field, not close it off. From there, we would have to ask questions to narrow down the field further. For example, are the events or apparent connections between events consistent with claims made in their scriptures or ancient texts, i. e., is there any justification in the religious writings for interpreting events a certain way? That may help in some cases, but not in others. From the names you mentioned, this seems to put us in the place of ancient cultures.

    For the ice cream example, I'll give you one alternative perspective on it. First of all, I'm not sure that example qualifies as gluttony as mentioned in the Bible. Hey, the gospels state that Jesus went to big feasts on earth, and there's supposed to be a big feast in the future kingdom, so simply a large quantity of food or calories doesn't seem to be the problem. Also, while actual gluttony may be a sin, it's not on the same level as murder, theft, or false testimony against someone, yet those things happen. (From a faith perspective, God often permits us to sin. Why sometimes and not others, and why there are consequences sometimes and not others...well, that can be another topic.) But I'll pass on that issue for now.

    As for what happened to the ice cream--well, it didn't have to be sent through an interdimensional portal, or be dematerialized. Its removal did not have to violate natural laws we know of. Even in the Bible accounts, what we call miracles were special events that took place under special circumstances for a reason. Sure Jesus is said to have walked on water, but he normally used more conventional means of transportation--like boats. And sure, he may have fed thousands from a few fishes and loaves, but, as far as we can see in other cases, the disciples ate what they caught, grew, or bartered for just like anyone else.

    Here are some conventional explanations for the missing ice cream:

    1. Someone there ate it and is lying outright.

    2.. Someone may be misleading you through misinterpretation and withholding information. For example, someone may think you meant it was eaten. What happened is that they left it out, it melted, and they threw it away. So they denied taking it, thinking that you meant that also involved eating it. What we think we hear isn't always what is said (thinking of fast-food drive-thrus here).

    3. A guest came over and took it without anybody knowing.

    4. You thought there was ice cream there, but actually, you forgot you put it in a different freezer.

    There are probably other reasonable possibilities, and further investigation might turn up what really happened, or it might not.

    Now we could say that's all there is to it. If God's involvement meant things had to be miraculous, we wouldn't have much of an issue here. But the scriptures establish that God works through conventional methods according to natural laws, so being able to explain events through the natural order doesn't eliminate God from the picture. If the ice cream was removed by conventional means, God could still be involved. Where did the idea to remove the ice cream come from? How did the opportunity happen to present itself at that particular time? The more factors we bring in that all had to be a certain way, the more improbable the end result becomes and the harder it is to explain. The ice cream example is not a great one to use for this explanation, but it helps to illustrate the basic problem.

  • hmike
    hmike

    I looked at all of the letters in your post and found a message that says: "All bow before LORD SATAN"

    OK, we look hard enough, we can find whatever we want. Does it mean anything to you?

    Something we can't ignore about anecdotal evidence is the personal significance it has to the person it happened to. It's not just what happened, but the timing of it, and how it related to the person's life situation. There are often all kinds of details that cannot be properly communicated to, or understood by others. People's lives are changed by these events. The biggest mistake may be to state or imply to others that the same thing will happen with them.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    I think we're pretty much agreeing, hmike.

    This point:

    Also, while actual gluttony may be a sin, it's not on the same level as murder, theft, or false testimony against someone, yet those things happen.

    I'm a little rusty, but aren't all sins meant to be equal in the eyes of God?

    Then you give alternatives to the disappearing food, which i agree are much more likely than a god being involved. You go on to say-

    Now we could say that's all there is to it. If God's involvement meant things had to be miraculous, we wouldn't have much of an issue here. But the scriptures establish that God works through conventional methods according to natural laws, so being able to explain events through the natural order doesn't eliminate God from the picture. If the ice cream was removed by conventional means, God could still be involved.

    Wouldn't Occam's Razor come into this? The simplest explanation would be one of the examples you gave. Adding a god to the equation only needlessly makes it more complex. With every 'miracle' I've heard of, I've been able to think of a few simpler explanations. One that is harder to explain away would be worthy of more study (and more deserving of adding 'God' to the mix) but so far, I've not heard of anything like that.

  • hmike
    hmike

    serotonin_wraith,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I'm a little rusty, but aren't all sins meant to be equal in the eyes of God?

    I know what you mean—a sin is a sin. What I mean is that on a relative scale, in how they relate to God and people, some sins have a much more significant impact, or I might say, are more grievous. Notice gluttony didn't make it into the Ten Commandments.

    Wouldn't Occam's Razor come into this? The simplest explanation would be one of the examples you gave. Adding a god to the equation only needlessly makes it more complex. With every 'miracle' I've heard of, I've been able to think of a few simpler explanations. One that is harder to explain away would be worthy of more study (and more deserving of adding 'God' to the mix) but so far, I've not heard of anything like that.

    As I understand the Razor, when competing theories or scenarios come to the same result, the simpliest one is preferred. Sure, why not, especially if we're looking to be purely functional. But at the same time, the simplest explanation is not necessarily the correct one in terms of completeness. Simplicity may be easier to work with, but we may miss details. If we're looking for the whole truth; if we're looking for the complete picture, don't we push beyond functional simplicity? Man strives to go beyond "because it works!"

    We can explain how things work without any deity, but can we ever hope to fully explain why?

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith
    What I mean is that on a relative scale, in how they relate to God and people, some sins have a much more significant impact, or I might say, are more grievous. Notice gluttony didn't make it into the Ten Commandments.

    This may be going too far astray from the topic, but while there are scriptures to show some sins are worse than others, there are contradicting ones such as James 2:10 that says anyone breaking any of the laws may aswell have broken all of them, or words to that effect. Also, the 10th commandment (in one of the versions) says not to cook a goat in it's mother's milk. Is that to be considered worse than gluttony or homosexuality? That's going off into another topic altogether though, but the point is we can't even be sure which sins are worse than others according to the Bible.

    But at the same time, the simplest explanation is not necessarily the correct one in terms of completeness. Simplicity may be easier to work with, but we may miss details. If we're looking for the whole truth; if we're looking for the complete picture, don't we push beyond functional simplicity? Man strives to go beyond "because it works!"

    I think whenever people have said that a god was behind something we couldn't explain, they thought it was the simplest choice. Saying Thor created thunder was simpler than looking into how it really occurs. Yet it isn't simpler at all, it is much more complex. Static electricity, different temperatures in the air and so on may seem complex, but they are still a whole lot simpler than explaining where this god came from. If thunder is beyond understanding, then adding a god only makes the problem even bigger, because a god has to be even more beyond understanding.

    I agree that man strives to go beyond 'because it works' (similar to 'because God did it') and it may seem that trying to explain it with science is more complex. In a way it is, because it takes more understanding than just thinking a god was behind it. But at the same time, once the answer is found, it still ends up being a lot simpler than having to explain the god.

    We can explain how things work without any deity, but can we ever hope to fully explain why?

    It depends what we're talking about. With the things that we can't explain, saying 'I don't know' is the best response, because it is foolish to think we will know everything our descendants will come to know. School children today know more about the Universe than the greatest scientific minds of 500 years ago. I expect it will be the same 500 years from now.

    With no proof of a god, that line of thought cannot be pursued beyond imagination. There is no data to work with, no evidence of any kind. Rather than opening up the possibilities, it closes them off sharply. For example today, only the scientists who aren't saying 'God did it' are the ones that are trying to find out what was before the Big Bang. Like the scientists of old who wouldn't settle for 'Thor did it' when trying to explain thunder, the only way for us to progress is to take this god character out of the equation altogether whenever a mystery comes along.

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