Someone doesn't like Alan F. & Carl O.

by whereami 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Someone help me out here: what is Furuli saying? How is he in in conflict with Carl O? Does this have anything to do with the 607/587 contoversy? A brief and simple summary would be nice.

    Brief summary: Rolf Furuli is a professor, not in history but semittic languages at the University of Oslo, Norway. He also happens to be a Jehovahs Witness, and as the only academic worldwide, he has taken it upon himself to defend the WTS`s "chronology" against the evil 99.9999% of the rest of the academic world, who says that Jerusalem fell in 587/586 BC. In doing so, he has compromised his scholarly integrity, and has become an embarassment to his University. But of course, as a loyal JW he put the organisation first, scholarly integrity second. The author of "Gentile Times Reconsidered", Carl Jonsson is criticising Furulis book (and now the revised edition). And in the rest of cyberspace, there is of course a "war" between Furulis adherents (usually young, nerdy JWs with computers) and the "apostates". You know, kind of like the war in heaven in 1914...

  • changeling
    changeling

    Thanks hellrider.

    changeling

  • Scully
    Scully
    very often are not exactly correct, but only approximately correct.

    If I say 2 + 2 = 5, is that "approximately correct" too? Is "wrong" too strong a term to put on it?

    Just curious.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    ALANF: Carl Jonsson is the expert here, and if history is any guide, he'll pretty well demolish Furuli's 2nd book just as he did the 1st. Obviously, Furuli isn't approaching the subject objectively, but with the goal of reaffirming his religious beliefs. That leads to all manner of scholastic dishonesty and manipulations.

    AlanF

    I would tend to agree with you here, Alan, that COJ at least presents some logic behind his arguments, whereas indeed Furuli clearly looses objectivity early on. He assimilates the evidence he wants to promote his chronology and ignores many other things. But so do we ALL in that regard. But while Furuli is easily dismissed, Jonsson runs like the wind from certain issues concerning the 70 years that he has yet to fully address, which in turn diminishes his credibility as well. The challenges to Jonsson's claim and focus on the 70 years of "servitude" not being 70 years of desolation after the fall of Jerusalem would be: 1. The prophecy of error of 390 years for the 10 tribes and the 40 years for Judah, amounting to 430 years, which if you divide by the two kings of agricultural sabbaths the Jews were required to keep, the 7-year and 50-year, you get the 70-year make-up: 430/7 = 61.4 430/50= 8.6 Total: 70 years This is a hurdle difficult to overcome in the face of 2 Chronicles which associates the seventy years with sabbath resting. 2. Of course, another issue is that Josephus, the Jewish historian (remember him) specifically at Antiquities 11.1.1 assigns his own interpretation as to exactly when those 70 years take place, which is at the time of the last deportation, when the "people go off their land." This secular historical reference to when the 70 years occur contradict Jonsson's interpretation of Jeremiah's prophecy about the "servitude" and who serves it:

    Antiquities 11.1.1 1. IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

    This is challenging and damaging to Jonsson's argument since it not only mentions "servitude" but also the specific seventy years associated with Jeremiah's prophecy. So Jonsson is yet to explain why his personal interpretation of the 70 years, which he needs to round down to 66 years by the way to work, is so much more pertinent than the secular Jewish interpretation and reference to these seventy years? Josephus came along long before the witnesses on this topic, how did he get it so wrong? 3. Finally, if the Jews didn't actually begin the 70 years of servitude until year 23, the year of the last deportation (Jer. 52:30) then that means that Zechariah 1 and 7 which reference the 2nd year of Darius ending 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e. "denunciation of the cites") and a different 70 years expiring in the 4th year of Darius of mourning in the 7th month for Gedaliah, then the Jews still should have been in exile in the 2nd and 4th years of Darius, since the 70 years of servitude would not have ended until 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem. Of course, the context of Zechariah 1 and 7 clearly do show the Jews were certainly still in bondage at that time and still asking "When will God show mercy to the cities" that had been desolated. Thus Zech. 1 and 7 completely support Josephus' history that 70 years of servitude was still going on even 72 years after the fall of Jerusalem. The Bible also supports that Darius the Mede became king prior to Cyrus becoming king over Babylon and never mentions the Jews being freed during the rule of a MEDE, but only when the "royalty of Persia" would begin to rule. That would be a reference to Cyrus THE PERSIAN and not Darius THE MEDE. Thus the issue of Darius, per the Bible, ruling for six years prior to Cyrus takes the throne and also being the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar needs to be covered by Jonsson. But he just runs from these issues. Interestingly, Sir Isaac Newton likewise, though only assigning the rule of Darius the Mede to just 2 years, clearly understands the Jews were still in exile immediately after the fall of Babylon and during the reign of Darius the Mede. It is also historically known that Darius the Mede was the son of the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. That's likely why there was no big political upheaval when Darius, the Mede overthrew Belshazzar. He was seen as a legitimate king of Babylon, which he was. There are ancient records that show Darius the Mede as a prince in the Babylonian army, a position held by the heirs of the king. What YOU and Jonsson might be concerned with is the ending of the Babylonian empire at the same time the 70 years end. A good point. Thus when Cyrus came to the throne, he was the first truly PERSIAN king to begin to rule, ending the reigns of both Babylonian kings Darius, the Mede (but also the half-Babylonian) and Nabonidus, who was the official king of Babylon even during the reign of Belshazzar. So the Babylonian empire and kings ruled right up to the time when Cyrus came to the throne, some six years after the fall of Jerusalem and after the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, Darius the Mede, had ruled for a full six years while the Jews were still in exile. Zechariah 1 and 7 confirms this, that indeed, the Jews had not yet been released by the 4th year of Darius the Mede. So Jonsson, on the topic of the 70 years, doesn't come anywhere near to addressing the Biblical and historical issues that clearly are pointing to another interpretation than what Jonsson is promiting, trying to preserve the revised chronology of the Babylonians that date the fall of Jerusualm in 587-586BCE which is a total joke at this point, Biblically speaking. Jerusalem fell in 529BCE. But in this regard, it seems that Furuli and Jonsson, though pretending to fight each other, are still on the same anti-Biblical team. That is, at one point they both agree on the "pivotal date" set forth by the WTS of Babylon falling in 539 BCE and the Jews returning from Babylon in 537BCE, the basis of the incorrect 607BCE dating. Thus both Furuli and Jonsson are incorrect in their own ways in detail, but both defending the same anti-Biblical chronology. JCanon

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    I am sure the WTS knows that their date is wrong but they will never admit it simly because it supports some vital concepts in their religion. If 1914 is wrong then 1918 is also wrong and their FDS was never appointed as they claim to the supreme religious rank on earth. He is a liar and an impostor and the whole JW labour, culture and history have been in vain.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    very often are not exactly correct, but only approximately correct.

    If I say 2 + 2 = 5, is that "approximately correct" too? Is "wrong" too strong a term to put on it?

    Just curious.

    In this regard, Furuli has a valid point. Astronomy sometimes is quite specific and when we find a generalization or a gloss over, we scream bloody murder and fraud! That's the way it's done. For instance, the precise timing for eclipses are up for grabs based upon the current canon times. That is, they are not precise but flexible. But some astronomical texts are specific to within 4 minutes. When that happens and the times you find in the canon don't match, then you adjust. But sometimes it is so far off its enough to dismiss the reference as accurate. This would apply to the SK400 (Strm. Kambyses 400) quoted from by the WTS. In fact, it is the only astronomical text they recognize. Problem is, the text gives the times for each eclipse, which means you can time the interval between the eclipses specifically, even if you have to jiggle the eclipse times a bit. Case in point, even Ptolemy states the first of two eclipses mentioned is supposed to happen "one hour before midnight" at Babylon. If you check the canon, this eclipse begins 7 minutes after 10 p.m. so it is some 53 minutes too early. No biggee, right? But the second eclipse occurs six months later that year 5 hours before morning which means around 1:47 a.m. So when the first eclipse occurs at 11:00 p.m. it establishes about a 2:47 minute interval between the two eclipses for that year, give or take 4 minutes. This is a "relative" time reference though, so no matter what time you actually begin the eclipse, this interval is not going to change. When we test this interval for the eclipses in 523BCE, where the WTS is trying to date this event, we find the eclipse interval for that year is some 4:46 minutes apart! So there is a 2-hour error margin here. Something is wrong. So we dismiss this text as credible. In the meantime we observe how the WTS just glosses over that detail, which means Furuli will have to gloss over it as well, which ruins his credibility. Here's their quote from the "Insight Book" for this reference:

    A Babylonian clay tablet is helpful for connecting Babylonian chronology with Biblical chronology. This tablet contains the following astronomical information for the seventh year of Cambyses II son of Cyrus II: "Year 7, Tammuz, night of the 14th, 1 2/3 double hours [three hours and twenty minutes] after night came, a lunar eclipse; visible in its full course; it reached over the northern half disc [of the moon]. Tebet, night of the 14th, two and a half double hours [five hours] at night before morning [in the latter part of the night], the disc of the moon was eclipsed; the whole course visible; over the southern and northern part the eclipse reached." (InschriftenvonCambyses,KönigvonBabylon, by J. N. Strassmaier, Leipzig, 1890, No. 400, lines 45-48; SternkundeundSterndienstinBabel, by F. X. Kugler, Münster, 1907, Vol. I, pp. 70, 71) These two lunar eclipses can evidently be identified with the lunar eclipses that were visible at Babylon on July 16, 523 B.C.E., and on January 10, 522 B.C.E. (Oppolzer’s CanonofEclipses, translated by O. Gingerich, 1962, p. 335) Thus, this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses II as beginning in the spring of 523 B.C.E. This is an astronomically confirmed date.

    Now this is an EXACT quote, so that bolded "evidently" is their emphasis! They have to say "evidently" because if they bothered looking up the times for these eclipses, which they did, they'd find the first eclipse some 53 minutes too early, which is acceptable, but the second eclipse never has worked in 523BCE, it's two hours off. So the WTS saying "evidently" is just a gloss over for a general reference that is not at all specific enough to match the text, they suggesting perhaps that these two eclipses were recorded but perhaps either the astronomy program got the times wrong or the records got the times wrong, but just mentioning the two eclipes is enough to confirm this dating. Of course, the astute Bible students don't buy this for a minute and dismiss the text as at least "inconclusive." Furuli can make some of the same arguments where texts applied to certain alignments of the planets as mentioned in the text itself is not PRECISELY accurate based upon modern astronomy programs and thus there is room for doubt and dismissal. But that position is a legitimate one, though it backfires for him in the case of the SK400 second eclipse. But as AlanF had stated, Furuli is blindsided by what he needs to accomplish, which is some academic credibility for the 607BCE dating, though he ignores the Bible's references showing the 70 years didn't begin until the last deportation in year 23, and Josephus' reference indicating the same. And he has a deaf ear to the "70 weeks" prophecy being fulfilled by Cyrus in 455BCE as well. So his credibility runs right in line with that of the WTS. While in fact they do point out errors in the current 587BCE chronology and sport their own astronomical texts that happen to agree with their part of the chronology, they pretend the same rules don't apply to them. That's why I prefer Olof Jonsson and AlanF, even though I differ on interpretation of certain things. At least they are HONEST. They will note, for instance, that there is little difference between the SK400 and the VAT4956. BOTH are astronomical texts from the Seleucid Era. Now the WTS dismisses the VAT4956 because it does come from the Seleucid Era, long after the fact and thus possibly containing false "historical information." That is absolutely a valid dismissal. But why doesn't that dismiss the SK400 as well? It does! So at least Jonsson and AlanF don't try to play both sides of the fence like Furuli and the WTS. Case in point, I'm consistent like AlanF and Jonsson, which basically states if you're going to dismiss one of them on the basis of being a late-dated text and thus suspicious of revisionism, then you need to dismiss both of them. Which I do. Both are fraudulent documents and contain contradictions and complications. Now, Furuli seems to focus two key documents, the VAT4956 and the Saturn text. The VAT4956 is easily dismissible. What is different about the Saturn text is that interestingly enough, the position of Saturn was close to the same stars in the zodiac in both the revised chronology and the original chronology. So the actual position of Saturn, if you know the precise exact date, will be closer in position as described in the text for the original dating than the revised dating. But Saturn moves so slow and the interval for Saturn's orbit just happened to work out well enough to perhaps allow that original text to remain rather than destroying it like all the others were during the Seleucid Period. So Furuli apparently noted that the position is not precisely as described, which it isn't and thus it's not a reliable dating tool. What is to be done though, before presuming it is a completely fabricated text, is to check the position of Saturn in connection with the Bible's chronology which runs about 56-57 years earlier than the revised chronology. I think I did that long ago once before and demonstrated the differences. Maybe its time to revisit that since I don't know where my original graphic might be. But still Furuli is treading lightly here since simply dimissing a text as fraudulent isn't the same as finding a better place for the text connected with some other dating. That is, I don't think the Saturn text works for the 607BCE dating, which is just 20 years earlier than the 587BCE dating, so he is stuck with a meaningless ancient text that he doesn't want to acknowledge. But it works quite well when located some 57 years later when Saturn is in the same position again, only more precisely matched to the later year, whatever it is. So my argument is better and more credible since I'm just saying the text is misdated and works only loosely with the revised chronology but fits the original chronology, and thus was an actual, observed event, whereas Furuli has to come up with some explanation for this astronomical text, allegedly not to be trusted. Hope that helps. JCanon

  • under_believer
    under_believer

    Here is a fact for all these people who like to use Bible Chronology for predictive purposes: the number of times Bible Chronology has yielded an accurate prediction is exactly zero.

    Common sense kind of argues against it, too... does anyone really think that God would leave these completely ambiguous, totally debatable hints in ancient texts for people to argue about and puzzle over millenia later? Doesn't it seem pretty unbelievable? And inefficient? And maybe, oh, I don't know, COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE?

    When you put the highly unlikely nature of Bible Chronology together with the results it's proven to have so far, the decision to reject it seems pretty easy to make.

    PS: What does this "scholarly" search for exact dates and times say for someone's faith? For their belief in the Sermon on the Mount? If you need a specific date to hang your faith from, is it really faith at all?

    PPS: Just read some of Furuli's text. The example above will do. Or Jonsson's for that matter, or (please forgive me) JCanon's (who does an excellent job of analysis and debunking.) Read it all the way through. Now take a deep breath. Now read a few pages of any Gospel, doesn't matter which, just pick some at random. Can you honestly read the simple, direct, free, liberating account of Jesus and his ways and teachings, and then look at these almost neutronically dense monoliths of prose about eclipses, lunar calendars, regnal successions, cuneiform tablets, biblical typology, and god help us mathematics, and think that this is really what Jesus had in mind for his followers to be thinking about or teaching or depending on for faith and belief?

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    under_believer wrote:

    : Can you honestly read the simple, direct, free, liberating account of Jesus and his ways and teachings, and then look at these almost neutronically dense monoliths of prose about eclipses, lunar calendars, regnal successions, cuneiform tablets, biblical typology, and god help us mathematics, and think that this is really what Jesus had in mind for his followers to be thinking about or teaching or depending on for faith and belief?

    Well of course! Does not the faithful slave tell us that Christians need a "faithful and discreet slave" to intervene between them, and God and Christ? And to teach them "the deep things of God"?

    AlanF

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Common sense kind of argues against it, too... does anyone really think that God would leave these completely ambiguous, totally debatable hints in ancient texts for people to argue about and puzzle over millenia later? Doesn't it seem pretty unbelievable? And inefficient? And maybe, oh, I don't know, COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE?

    Interesting, but the fact is, if you actually read the Bible, some things were deliberated sealed and made secret until the end-times, AND, immediately after the great tribulation the Bible says there would be increased spiritual darkness in relation to the messiah and thus the precisely chronology regarding the messiah. So indeed there would be secrets and hidden knowledge that would not be revealed until the right time. But NOW it's being revealed! Now all the numbers are working!

    Take for instance three year-specific prophecies about the second coming. If this was all just a big mess, you wouldn't expect to be able to independently calculate the same year for the second coming x 3 to the specific year would you? But that's PROOF of the accuracy.

    For instance, the messiah is supposed to come during the 70th week and "end gift and sacrifice" at mid-70th week. That that is SIMPLE and DIRECT. Why? Because everybody knows the messiah arrived in 29CE and thus that sets the the 70th week from 29-36CE. But that sets every other 70th week that we'd calculate, including the closest one to our time! All you have to do is keep adding 490 years until you get to our time. 4 x 490 = 1960. Add 1960 to 36CE and you have a 70th week ending in 1996 and beginning in 1989. That means the messiah would "end gift and sacrifice", this time the Passover Lord's Supper for the first time in April 6, 1993. See how simple that was?

    But does that match other prophecies. Well the next easiest is the 1290 days prophecy where the messiah appears 45 years after the "end of the gentile times" which is the end of the trampling of Jerusalem. When did the gentile times end? When did the Jews officially come out of exile and regain their promised land? 1947! So if that ends the 1290 days, then to fulfill the 1335 days, you need only add 45 years to determine the year of the second coming. It's after November 30, 1992. So right here you have a beginning date and end date just four months apart, November 30, 1992 and April 6, 1993. So we know when the messiah would arrive based upon these prophecies which are both pointing to the same year.

    So those persons, perhaps like yourself, are simply going on what was known and understood in the past but not with what is clearly happening NOW. Indeed there would be lack of understanding, even among God's people (remember the 10 virgins all nod and their lamps grow dim, so knowledge is even hidden from them at first), but later the seals are broken on the scolls and all is revealed.

    Same thing with the 2520 year prophecy. Now some people can't get past all the fake Babylonian chronology, I understand that, but political ambition is political ambitiion so the revisions were made. But just to note, no one is arguing that 455BCE doesn't begin the 70 weeks. IF (I'm saying IF...) we assign the 455BCE dating to when Jerusalem first began to be rebuilt and thus the 1st of Cyrus, simply NOTE what happens to the dating. We can date the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar to 525BCE and the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar as the Bible says. If so, then guess what date-year we will get for the second coming instead of 607/1914 or 587/1934? You get 1992!

    Now YOU tell me. Why is it that all three prophecies point to the very same year? COINCIDENCE? Not at this point. NOT in this discussion when people are saying the Bible doesn't work out. The fact is, if you've got the right numbers it works out perfectly well!

    It's a matter of looking, researching and learning as much as you can and not being fooled by everybody with an agenda, including ME.

    People think it's the same old confused game of missed and error dates from the WTS, but it's a new ballgame now. The dates are fabulous and consistent, right down the line!

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    SATURN TABLET INVESTIGATION: I made some comments about the Saturn tablet before, but have since rechecked this reference. It wasn't what I had thought before. But I did discover the reference is a month off! And also you can find text-correct references in the 59-year interval for both years of 640BCE and 581BCE, except for some reason both references are a month off as best I can tell.

    Basically the Saturn text gives the positions of Saturn in month 6 and month 7. In the sixth month it is "behind the furrow" and in the seventh month it is "between" the furrow and the Balance, meaning between the end of Virgo's leg that makes up a "furrow" pattern (a trench) and the constellation of Libra, which is a scale.

    Now in both years Saturn does travel from behind the furrow to a position halfway between the two constellations within a month, but it does so in months 7 and 8, not 6 and 7. So there is something wrong with this text.

    SPECULATION: Now there are several possibilities that we consider in this situation where the VAT4956 confirms for us that there was a conspiracy during the Seleucid Period to manipulate astronomical texts, and the DIARIES of the VAT4956 and SK400 were just a device to try and "hide in plain sight" secret references to the original chronology. So when we find other texts. The texts themselves prove that fake astronomical texts were being created that lined up with the fake chronology though. So that is our first consideration when there is any astronomical text that lines up with the fake chronology. One of the first questions is when was the text created? The final revisions didn't come into effect until after Xenophon made those revisions just prior to the death of Artaxerxes II in 358BCE, who is the king who employed him to make the Greek revisions. So no text representing specifically the revised chronology can be dated prior to 358BCE, and likely must be dated at the same time or later than when the VAT4956 was created, which is known to have been created during the Seleucid Period. So that's the first question. One way to determine this is to see if the writing style is that typical of the later period or if it's written in the old Akkadian style. IF it turns out that it is a Seleucid Period "copy" then we can just dismiss it immediately as a fake text that was revised.

    However, there were coincidentally some original astronomical references that worked marginally well with the revised chronology. In which case, it would have been ideal to leave that reference in the original form to help authenticate that the revised chronology is actually true and correct. This covers references like the Assyrian eponym eclipse, a solar eclipse that happens in Simanu (month 3). The eclipse reference is not specific (i.e. total, partial, etc.), only that it occurs in the third month, and apparently was considered a major event of the year for some reason. But it turns out that the 56-57 year discrepancy between the revised and original chronology from the NB Period, allows for an eclipse normally dated to month 2 but optionally dated to 3, 54 years and 1 month earlier than the original one in 709BCE, could be used as a substitute eclipse. That's why the normally-dated month 2 eclipse in 763BCE is used and it is the most significant ancient reference for this period because it fixes the entire Assyrian Period!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/760s_BC

    "June 15, 763 BC - A solar eclipse at this date (in month Sivan) is used to fix the chronology of the Ancient Near East. However, it should be noted that it requires Nisan 1 to fall on March 20, 763 BC, which was 8 to 9 days before the vernal equinox (March 28/29 at that time) and Babylonians never started their calendar year before the spring equinox. Main article: Assyrian eclipse"

    Thus if the text is actually contemporary with the 640-581BCE dating, then what we look for is a comparison of that text and the text-match with the original potential year vs the fabricated year. That will take more research. But as I noted, since the observations are clearly off by one month in both potential years when Saturn was in these positions, this looks like not only a revised text but possibly a cryptic double-dating text. That is, like the VAT4956 and the SK400, which were designed to have some references clearly fit the revised chronology, they hide more specific references to the original chronology. So that is another potential for looking at any astronomical text that first appears to agree with the revised chronology, since often it will have a clue that points to the original chronology. Thus the fact that this reference is a month off might suggest a secret ploy by those who were assigned to revise the text to cause the text to be technically invalidated because it is not accurate to the correct month.

    Now it is not apparent to me at this stage how that might tell us when the original dating was, other than the obvious option of dating the reference to 581BCE, which works out for the 8th year of Kalandanu for the original chrnology with just a 2-year adjustment, which is easily accommodated by the 2-year overlap of the reign of Nabonidus with Nebuchadnezzar. Meaning, that might have been one of the revisions as well to make this adjustment for the Satan tablet. At any rate, it could just be a means to disqualify this text on its face since the dating is incorrect. But we know at this point, at least, that it must have originated during the Seleucid Period since the astronomical reference itself is not accurate.

    Now of interest in all this, is that during my research of the 763BCE eclipse it was discovered that the Assyrians from ancient times always began their new year after the equinox. This was in effect during the rule of Bar-Sagale. But the last two Assyrian kings for some reason did start to begin the year before the equinox. But this was changed back to the original standard of after the equinox once the NB Period began. This period during the reign of Babylonian King Kalanadu would have been during this one short segment of time when the Assyrians were beginning the year before the equinox. Meaning that if this was done in Babylon as well, then the actual events occurring one month later is correct. That is months 6 and 7 become months 7 and 8 when you begin the year one month earlier. So the positions of Saturn one month apart that match months 7 and 8 (vs 6 and 7) presumably came from an original reference for the position of Saturn.

    Furuli claims generally that something about this seems to have been "calculated" or predicted, suggesting an adjustment was made later on to make this reference match an earlier consistent sequence. Of note, a pattern of eclipses known to the Assyrians was the solar eclipses that occurred every 54 years and one month later. I'm now wondering if someone during the Seleucid Period thought this principal should be applied to Saturn. Thus moving the original reference which occurs in months 7 and 8 in 581BCE, was moved back in time 59 years + 1 month, so that it gets dated to months 6 and 7 in the revised text, only they didn't realize that same pattern did not apply to Saturn and the moon's position was essentially the same for months 7 and 8 in 640BCE as a match to 481BCE. So they miscalculated this.

    If Furuli actually saw the texts himself, then he could confirm a few things, including the writing style. Further he may not be aware of the problem with this reference not being astronomically correct for the position of Saturn and the precise month. Furthermore, those using the Saturn text, like O. Jonsson, note that it was said that matching this precisely to the month would mean a match that couldn't be duplicated in over 17 centuries! Well that certainly is not true! You get a text match of "behind the furror and between the furrow and Libra" for both years in the 59-year cycle of 640 and 581BCE.

    The quote from GTR3 says from F. Walker:

    "A complete cycle of Saturn phenonmena in relation to the stars takes 59 years. But when that cycle has to be fitted to the lunar calendar of 29 or 30 dyas then identical cycles recur at intervals of rather more than 17 centuries. Thus there is no difficulty in determining the date of the present text." (Page 170, GTR3)

    Now this may be astronomically correct, but it is not accurate for this reference, because the reference to the specific position of Saturn, i.e. behind the furror and between the furrow and Libra, is general enough to accurately describe Saturn's position for both years in this 59-year cycle in question, 640 and 681BCE. This can be demonstrated quite easily with an astronomy program.

    I didn't have time to do all the charts for the dates one might want to look at but this is quickie showing that Saturn's position one month described as "behind the furrow" for one month and "between" meaning half-way between or equally between the furrow of Virgo and Libra (the Balance) is accurate for 581BCE, which is in the 59-year cycle after 640BCE where that text is being promoted as dating year 8 of Kalanadu. Saturn is in similar positions in 640BCE, so both years would qualify as matching this reference, with no real superiority over one year or the other. This contradicts the quote by Jonsson, used for dramatic effect, that a match would not occur in over "17 centuries."

    To put this in perspective, an astronomer could say that no eclipse occurs in exactly the same time and place on the Earth in over 10,000 years! Well that might be true. But if you have a text reference that just gives "an eclipse in month 3", without saying exactly if it was total or partial, just that it was seen in that month, then that could apply to a lot of potential eclipses! That's why we can move the eclipse in the eponym list from 763BCE to 709BCE because the nature of the eclipse is not stated and both events can be dated to month 3. Same here. The position of Saturn is not specific. It doesn't say it was exactly say 1 cubit behind the furrorw, it just says "behind", which qualifies for a range of positions where Saturn is closer to that star reference than any other. As noted, when it gets to be halfway between two points of reference, with no preference, it simply indicates it is "between" the two points of reference as in the case of the second reference noted. So when the reference is nonspecific like this, you can see it can easily fit two possible years, which is how the revisionists sometimes included original references they had that worked out well for both chronologies. For this period the difference in the chronology was about 56-57 years, so the 59-year adjustment was neglible; it only meant a two-year adjustment somewhere in the reigns of one of the kings. 2 years were either added to the end of the rule of Kalanadu or more likely added to the reign of Nabopolassar, whose actual rulership years is in question. For instance, Sir Isaac Newton has Nebuchadnezzar ruling for two years before he becomes sole ruler. That's interesting but it suggests a two-year contradiction in the records.

    If you didn't follow that, here's another explanation. If 581BCE was the original year 8 of Kalanadu and they wanted to move a Saturn reference to match the new chronology, which is 57 years now earlier, to do that, they have to move it 2 more years farther back, expanding that period so that the 59-year cycle matches to 640BCE. That's not that much of a problem, since they only need to expand either the rule of Kalandu by 2 years or that of the king following him, Nabopolassar by 2 years. Apparently they added 2 years to the rule of Nabopalassar to make up for the 59-year move-back. That 2-year discpreancy between the end of Nabopolassar and Nebuchadnezzar was always there.

    Here are your graphics. This demonstrates how technical all this is, and why you can't just take someone's word for a reference working out for only a single date. It is more complex than that, especially if it is representing the wrong date. Usually we find complications on a closer look just like we are now. Not that I've finished my investigation, but this is what I have so far.

    Again, the above shows that the text reference for the positions of Saturn work in 581BCE, 59 years after where they say the Saturn Text only works for one date in "17 centuries". Plus since this match in 581BCE as well as in 640BCE both occur in months 7 and 8 rather than 6 and 7 per the text, there is obviously a problem. This does initially suggest as Furuli said, that someone in later times was guessing and predicting, and perhaps thought the month should be changed to one month earlier as they had done with solar eclipses and lunar eclipses in the exeligmos pattern (54 years 1 month) well known to the Babylonians and Assyrians, and actually, a basis for the Thales eclipse prediction! See: http://www.geocities.com/ed_maruyama/thalesx.html

    JCanon

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