by Leander 64 Replies latest jw friends
lol little toe beat me to the punch...
Really Leander why not try by starting out with the premise that there is NO true religion and then go from there...open your mind to more possibilites outside the the narrow confines of religion...
just a thought....
LT,
I disagree. They exist. To be totally spurious you would have to prove them such, not just flippantly declare them to be such.
Totally aburd. The one who makes a statement should support it. All we know is that a story existed, some hundred years after the fact, that Alexander was presented with this "prediction." No contemporary historians, Greek or otherwise, were sufficiently impressed with this that they bothered to write it down.
Your conjecture is that any assertion is true until proven otherwise. That is so ridiculous it doesn't merit serious consideration.
The Septuagint has stood for a couple of millenium. Why should I suddenly accept the burden of responsibility of re-proving it?LOL. You're really grasping here, aren't you? It has "stood" in the sense that it has existed, alongside thousands of other old documents, many of which tell myths and legends of all sorts and also demonstrable unfalse claims about nature and the world (yes, the Bible is part of this).
The Gilgamesh epic is one of the most ancient documents that exist. Do you accept everything it says as true (like, about Babylonian gods and heroes)? If not, why do you make this distinction between this much more ancient document and the Bible?
A similar argument could be made about many other ancient texts, including the Vedas.
You will notice that I only extended my point to cover the Roman dynasty. As for 20th Cent. - well the jury is still out on all of that.And Daniel contains no information about the Roman emperors. This is a misapplication, as you can find explained in any good Bible Commentary.
If you want to demonstrate otherwise, feel free to provide an example of a prediction in Daniel that matches -- in context -- the Roman emperors and not the Seleucide diadochi.
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
3. "And this news of the kingdom will be preached throughout the entire inhabited earth and then the end will come"
Could this possibly be the reason why witnesses feel the need to preach?
Hi Erik... welcome! I personally feel that is exactly why most JW's preach... that scripture and also the one where Jesus tells his followers to "go and make disciples in all the earth..."
Leander,
1. … It just seems kind of unfair that those people should die simply because they really don't know any better. And when you think about it that covers quite a few people.
there’s a simple and reasonable answer to the question you pose. the fact is that by the time armageddon arrives the entire population of the earth will have been separated into only two camps. in one camp will be those who will have given in to the pressure to accept the mark of the wild beast (by acknowledging that it’s the HIGHEST authority, and thereby committing idolatry). in the other camp will be those who refuse to give the wild beast such “worship” (therefore refusing to commit such idolatry). those who DO commit idolatry (the great majority of mankind) thus place themselves in the precarious position of being fit to be removed off the earth at armageddon. it will be their own fault, because it will have been by their own choice that they accepted the “mark”. so, as it will turn out, God will have not removed people indiscriminately. each person will have been given the choice of what he or she chose to obey, either the wild beast or the God of the Bible. those who choose to go with the God of the Bible will be preserved thru the end of the present system. those who make the mistake of giving the wild beast the respect that only belongs to God will have to pay for it with their lives. this doesn’t mean of course that these ones won’t stand a chance of being resurrected. the question is, however, How many years of life will they have missed out on due to their foolishness … since they too could have survived armageddon even as others will have done. will it be 100, 200, 300, 400… or even more years into the millennium before they too are raised from the dead? what a price to have paid for having worshipped the wrong thing, at such a judgmental time in mankind’s history! what a price to pay when considered from the standpoint that, given the time they lived in, they too could have been among those privileged with never EVER having had to taste death as all mankind had had to do up until that time. what a unique opportunity there will be for people who live in that day, although the times will be tremendously rough to endure. and indications are that that time isn’t likely so far down into the future.
3. Another thing I'm having problems understanding is the issue of God's servants being considered blood guilty if they don't preach. …. I'm very confused as to why we would be threatened with death if we don't preach. Its like we're being held responsible for the lives of other humans. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that command but I feel that it’s not my fault that the world is in the shape that it’s in, I'm a victim in this system like everyone is. And then to have the additional burden of warning others or else seems to be kind of harsh. I don't know maybe I have the wrong view on that one, afterall I would want someone to tell me how to get life if I did'nt already know about it.
Christians are responsible for the lives of other fellow humans to the degree of their knowledge that could help others with what they need to know. this is in keeping with the law that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. if it is true, and it is, that it’s only by having an accurate knowledge of the Bible that people (for the most part) will be able to survive armageddon, and we were to refuse to help people gain that knowledge, then we would be demonstrating that we don’t intend to love our fellowman in compliance with Jesus’ command. so we are obliged to minister (preach) to the world, that is, if we really do love our fellowman. is it not only reasonable that God will eventually allow JUST those who truly love their neighbor to live forever in his infinitely huge universe? surely the answer to that question is obvious!
I've often questioned whether or not the bible is just fiction as well. The one thing that totally prevents me from throwing it all away is prophecy. I can't explain why things that were written so long ago are coming true right now. If there was a hole in the credibility of prophecies then I'd discard everything I ever learned from the bible.
with regards to prophecy, there’s only a very few things that I can say which I see happening so far. one of those has to do with the march of world rulerships. (notice that I didn’t say “world powers”, the reason being that the “seven kings” rule the world of their day as opposed to merely being “dominant” world powers.) both the 2nd and 7th chapters of Daniel predicted that after Rome’s rule of the earth had passed that jurisdiction of the earth would come into the hands of an indefinite number of sovereignties. and this is PRECISELY what one sees having happened in view of the present world scene. thus, the legs of Iron DID in fact give way to the feet of Iron and Clay … the many governments that control the entire earth today (Daniel 2). comparatively, the 4th beast of Daniel 7 DID develop 10 horns that inherited the power that Rome had possessed. just one example of fulfilled prophecy. i will humbly admit though that there has been a misunderstanding by the WTS about Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 24:7 regarding its having already been fulfilled, because it hasn’t undergone fulfillment as yet.-lefty
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1. … It just seems kind of unfair that those people should die simply because they really don't know any better. And when you think about it that covers quite a few people.
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there is an even simpler answer to this:it's untrue. it's not knowledge or the lack of it that the bible points to it's gods grace. were is it in the bible that knowledge is needed?
lefty,
both the 2nd and 7th chapters of Daniel predicted that after Rome’s rule of the earth had passed that jurisdiction of the earth would come into the hands of an indefinite number of sovereignties.
No, it doesn't. There is nothing even suggesting such an idea there. If you want to defend this assertion, come up with the evidence.
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
Here we go - Lefty reminds me a bit of YK, without the in your face gloom and doom -
<grabs popcorn for upcoming show>
re kings of north & south
conventional interpretation by both catholics and jews applies the entire timeline to the seleucid and ptolemaic rivalries. this fact was mentioned in the original Daniel book, Your Will Be Done, but omitted from the summarized version in the new Daniel book.
this interpretation makes me much more comfortable. otherwise we have to assume that the writers spoke at great length and detail about events in maccabeen times and then suddenly skipped centuries ahead for a few verses and then skipped a couple millenia ahead for a few verses more. all with no warning of the enormous periods of time that were being skipped. why would anyone choose to prophecy like this. if the purpose was to foretell events in our day for our warning, why devote the majority of the prophecy to events in ancient kingdoms and only a smattering about the 20th century?
the lopsidedness and gaps in the WT interpretation are harder to recognize as you read or study the Daniel book, since so much intervening explanation is provided to seam together the historical spaces. try this: simply read the biblical narrative, then apply the WT meaning to the verses as you read and ask yourself why anyone would record millenia of history this way.
the theory that this prophecy itself is a product of maccabeen times has much support, but this is another story really.
mox
Hello, all... and peace to you all!
Without trying to sound patronizing (I promise, I am not), but rather honest... I have learned that the "Bible" is not necessarily to BE understood, as we, 'christian' mankind, have deemed it to be. The "Bible", which is NOT 'scripture' but CONTAINS 'scripture' (Moses, The Prophets, Psalms, the Revelation), also contains histories, chronologies and letters.
Together, ALL of these were to be used for only one thing: to find life. And indeed, the "Bible" can initially help us find life. Rather, it can initially help us to find Life.
John 14:6
For it is simply a recorded collections of documentation that 'bears witness' to the True Life. Other than that, it truly has no 'power', none at all. For it cannot GIVE you life. Once you understand this, then you understand that there IS a 'source' of life, something... rather someONE who CAN grant you life. And isn't life truly what ALL mankind is seeking, whether 'christian', 'buddhist', 'muslim', 'hindu', 'agnostic', 'atheist', whathaveyou? In truth, don't we ALL want to live... forever... if possible (notice, I said in TRUTH)... and want such for our loved ones as well? Truly, it is the minority of us that wish 'any to die'.
So, rather than deem the Bible... or even the 'scriptures'... as a way to find life, may I direct you to the words OF the 'Way' to life... as recorded IN the Bible, at John 5:39, 40? Thank you, and may you have 'ears' to hear what the Spirit says... and get the 'sense' of it:
"You are searching the SCRIPTURES...
because you THINK...
that by means of THEM...
you will have everlasting life.
And THESE
(the 'scriptures')...And yet...
you do not WANT...
to COME TO ME...
that you may HAVE life."
Why is this so important a recording? Because many of us have been taught, and are still being taught, that when my Lord said, "Come to ME...", he meant "read your Bible". But he did NOT meant that, not at all. And this recorded verse shows that. At no time in the 'Christian Greek Scriptures' (or NT, as some call them), did he EVER tell ANYONE to... "go read the Bible" or "go read the scriptured". Not once. But he DID say to them, on NUMEROUS occasions, or imply to them... that they should come... TO HIM.
Matthew 11:28, 29
John 7:37, 38
John 5:39, 40
John 4:10, 14
John 6:35
Isaiah 55:1
1 Corinthians 10:2-5
Revelation 22:17
And so, my dear ones, it is NOT the "Bible"... nor the 'scriptures' that we must 'kiss'. No, for it is the SON... that my Father, by means of my forefather David said... we must kiss.
"KISS THE SON... and drink from HIM... all you 'thirsty' ones. And you WILL be 'quenched'. And HIS 'water' will rise up in you as a fountain 'bubbling to impart everlasting life.' The Bible... contains no 'water', dear ones. It only TELLS us... about the One who has such 'water', from whose 'inmost parts'... such 'water'... HOLY SPIRIT... flows.
Joel 2:28, 29
Acts 2:33
1 Corinthians 12:4-13
Romans 6:23
Again, I bid you all peace and I am,
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
