A MORAL SOCIETY WITHOUT GOD OR RELIGION

by fifi40 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I think this is the answer:

    IMAGINE by John Lennon

    Imagine there's no Heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

    Okay, it's a bit more complicated. Still- imagine.

  • Terry
    Terry
    My biggest problem with her philosophy of "Objectivism" then and now is the tired old anti-atheist argument of: What will act as a restraint if not a belief in a higher power? I think the principles of humanism address this more than what I read from Ayn Rand.

    BTW, I'm agnostic/atheist and I really can't explain what it is that keeps me from being a horrific sociopath. The Bible believers will of course be quick to say it's my God-given "conscience" in spite of my non-belief. I can't explain it intellectually. But for me it's deep-seated and real to me.

    In a nutshell: if I buy into Objectivism 100%, then what is to stop me from grinding everyone in my path into dust? (through legal means, of course)

    A related nutshell: Is there any call for charity in Objectivism? I don't recall it being there. I just remember Ayn Rand ranting on page after page about how people would try to "out need" each other. Given her background in Soviet Russia, I can understand her hatred of this idea.

    I hope I've put these questions out there in an understandable manner.

    Thanks,

    Open Mind

    Rand, as you are well aware, escaped from the Communist takeover of Russia where her parents had been bourgeoise until the Soviet Socialists reduced everybody to "equality" of poverty and starvation.

    She moved to America for opportunity to survive and thrive which she did by perserverance and talent. To be a woman in the times in which she lived; to be a "foreigner" and not a native speaker and to become a dazzling success as an intellectual, philosopher, writer and original thinker was an amazing feat. She never asked for charity; only opportunity to earn. Rand expected the same of others; that they seize every opportunity to better themselves by hard work and indefatigable will to succeed.

    Grinding everybody to dust is hardly necessary unless you are a sociopath. As Dr.Phil says, "it is a kill and eat world", but; we don't have to kill to eat; we only have to apply ourselves and our efforts to honest work.

    A rational person clearly sees that competition requires having something extra to offer in the marketplace. Success often depends on preparation, talent and jumping onto an opportunity quickly and not letting go. Rand, for example, went to Hollywood where she gained access to the backlot of a movie studio. There she got the attention of Cecil B. DeMille and impressed him with her intelligence and will to overcome obstacles. He employed her to come up with scenarios and read scripts.

    Eventually, Rand was able to achieve the nearly impossible feat of having her book, The Fountainhead, made into a movie to which she wrote the script using the actor of her choice, Gary Cooper. The movie was a vehicle for demonstrating her newly minted philosophy of Objectivism.

    So, to answer you question pointedly, Rand and her philosophy require tough justice and not brutality or violence to achieve just ends. People must seize control of their own mind and direct themselves to building a better life without relying on the goodwill of strangers. Ultimate responsibility for success or failure rests with the individual.

    That seems pretty clear-headed and just to me.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    I became very curious about objectivism and Ayn Rand

    I always like to look at both sides of an issue and found this article

    http://www.jeffcomp.com/faq/wrong.html#dishonest

    What's REALLY Wrong With Objectivism?

    Anyone who has had much exposure to the philosophy of Objectivism, or the Objectivist movement, has observed the endless moralizing and condemnation which seems to characterize the philosophy of Objectivism and many of its adherents. People who oppose the philosophy of Objectivism, or who simply espouse ideas at odds with Objectivism, frequently find their character, honesty, and integrity under vicious attack.

    For example, we are told that an academic Marxist is not merely mistaken, but is 'evil,' and is guilty of practicing 'evasion.' People who are the victims of such attacks frequently come away baffled. They cannot understand how their character and honesty can be judged solely by the ideas they have proposed or defended. These personal attacks cause many people to hurriedly back away from Objectivism, and refuse to have anything further to do with it. The victims of such attacks frequently conclude that Objectivism is simply another nutty cult, not worth wasting time on.

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Every society known has strictures against theft murder and other anti-social deeds.

    Each one claims that without the belief in the deity/ -ies they created in their own image, there could be no morality.

    In fact it is the survival of humans by these evolved values, that makes ignorant primitives think the gods transmitted these deeply held instinctive inhibitions.

    Questions like this reveal the Judeo-christian origin of the argument. For instance if somebody asks you " do you believe in God?" you can guarantee that they don't mean Wotan or Ashtoreth.

    Apparently none of the children of Abraham knew murder stealing adultery was wrong until Jehoobie gave them the ten commandments. (BY this account the gods of Egypt and Babylon were far more responsible because they told their people long before the jewish god - indeed the jews learned these values from the pagans)

    The existence of pro-survival values does not prove that the tribal god of the jews ever existed, except in their dehydrated desert-crazed brains.

    HB

  • zack
    zack

    If those without law do by nature the very things in the law, they are themselves a law and are being either accused or excused in their own nature----- Paul, apostle to the nations.

    Most people are moral and by nature do right by others. The ones that don't do right are sociopaths. Religion doesn't define or serve morality--- it perverts it.

  • Terry
    Terry

    For example, we are told that an academic Marxist is not merely mistaken, but is 'evil,' and is guilty of practicing 'evasion.' People who are the victims of such attacks frequently come away baffled. They cannot understand how their character and honesty can be judged solely by the ideas they have proposed or defended. These personal attacks cause many people to hurriedly back away from Objectivism, and refuse to have anything further to do with it. The victims of such attacks frequently conclude that Objectivism is simply another nutty cult, not worth wasting time on.

    I hung out at an Objectivist Discussion Board for awhile and found them all to be such boorish prigs that I could not endure it any longer. No sense of humor!

    I don't know about ALL Objectivists, but; certainly the ones who hang out at discussion boards want to treat Rand's philosophy like religion. Gawd Amighty! Who needs that?

    Aside from people who cluster to "discuss" her philosophy, I find Rand's writings absolutely brilliant. She'll disabuse you of irrationality pretty quick!

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