I've a rather traditional view of perfection and JW's explanation doesn't embarrasses me. When we see that something is wrong, whether on a physical or moral point of view, we say that it is imperfect because we compare it to a standard which, itself, we grasp within our own limits. If we remain at that human stage, we will, indeed, find everything is relative since we haven't got any absolute standard to lean against. Now, if we put God in the picture we, actually, don't go much further in the knowledge of perfection because He is the only one who knows what the absolute standard is. So, wait and see, when in paradise earth we'll know if God keeps us, somehow, from crushing ants under our feet or if this crushing is part of perfection...
Perfection
by purplesofa 42 Replies latest jw friends
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Sad emo
Purps, when I had that verse pointed out and explained to me, it was one of those mind-blowing, jaw-dropping 'WOW' moments!
Maybe mankind will be "morally" perfect?
I think you've got it there - for me, that's what being made in God's image means - what Jesus was on about when He said 'Be holy as your heavenly Father is holy' - strangely I think some Bible translations actually use the word 'perfect' instead of 'holy' too.
Hmm I wonder which was the original word - if it was 'holy' has it been reworded to 'perfect' to keep believers in fear (they could never attain perfection without the help of the religious rituals)?
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animal
You all are pretty smart... all the things I wanted to add were already said by you all.
Animal
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Leolaia
Nowhere does the Bible say that Adam was created perfect. This claim is the result of an analogy to Jesus, yet nowhere does the NT assume that the relationship between Adam and Jesus is one of exact correspondence or involves "perfection" per se. The implied comparison between the two in the christological hymn of Philippians 2 would, in fact, emphasize their dissimilarity -- Adam was less and through ambition tried to attain divinity whereas Christ was divine but humbly became less.
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PEC
inborn tendency toward wickedness
F*ing wack jobs. There are bad people and there are good people. It would fit in a bell curve with a few very good and a few very bad and the rest of us.
Philip
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Terry
No STANDARD; no PERFECTION.
If God, for example, is the standard of perfection in living beings, then; it logically follows anything NOT God is de facto IMperfect.
God created non-god in angelic beings and humanity. Jehovah guaranteed non-perfection.
The entire history of God's dealing with mankind has been concerned with--not perfection per se (being a god) but, with being attributed token perfection in God's eyes.
It is like receiving an honorary degree from a University where you did NOT attend or pass any of the courses simply because the University decides to honor you!
Jews were given PROBATIONARY perfection in God's eyes ONLY when obeying his law. (Which God knew was IMpossible!)
Christianity (i.e. Paul) tries to convince us Jesus (god-being) fulfilled the perfect law because Jesus was perfect.
But, Jesus broke many of the tenets of the Perfect Law. Jesus transcended the actual behaviors required and pointed, rather, to the PURPOSE of a perfect law as being FOR humanity rather than its condemnation. (Jesus broke Sabbath injunctions repeatedly, for example.)
This is Paul's nonsense and apologia rather than a sensible outworking of procedure.
So, WHERE does all this leave us in a discussion of PERFECTION?
Man has to become a god-being (i.e. become a spirit and reside in heaven) or he remains non-god-being and corrupts himself into depravity and destruction.
Mankind, then, falls into two categories: those who get the honory degree and trip to heaven and those who can't get their G.E.D. and must die.
Pretty simple.
Utter nonsense, but, simple.
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White Dove
Inborn tendency toward wickedness: I never felt wicked as I'm sure many others have never felt wicked, either. I can't help but feel a bit indignant when everyone on earth is caught up in the "imperfection" net and labeled "wicked." That is just a word that overbearing leaders use to inflict guilt in order to control the masses.
My friend said to me once, "If God created everything perfect, why is it that he had to keep tweaking it?" Ex: flood destroyed everything so God could have a fresh start. It ended up being f***** up, again. How about the nation of Israel? F***** up, again!
I believe we were created then left to fend for ourselves. No imperfection, just life. That's it. Period.
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Leolaia
Terry....I think you have misattributed to Paul the views of his adversaries (e.g. the Jewish-Christian perspective in Matthew, which views the Law as binding and which Jesus has fulfilled). Paul's very point is that the Law can never be satisfied and thus it makes everyone accursed. Paul says that Jesus became a curse under the Law and he believed that the Law was given to enslave mankind, to make people slaves to sin. His point is that Jesus' expiation makes the Law completely irrelevant; Jesus has made it possible to make anyone DEAD in the eyes of the Law (via baptism and acceptance of God's grace through Jesus) and ALIVE in the eyes of God. The Law instead is a device used by the Powers and Principalities and Sovereignties (who according to Paul administered the Law through Moses) to enslave humanity to sin. The Jewish-Christian viewpoint (cf. the Petrine tradition in the Kerygmata Petrou and the Epistula Petri) is very different. It views the Law as expressing the will of God and which itself is perfected through Jesus' teaching, who provided the true halacha on how the Law should be followed. In this perspective, the sabbath controversies and other legal controversies with Jesus was never about Jesus "breaking the Law" or "failing to observe the commandments". Rather, he was providing halacha on the relative nature of the Torah, that depending on the situation some commandments must be relaxed so that others may be followed. This is a well-known rabbinical principle elsewhere in Judaism.
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changeling
I like your friend purps. IMO perfection is another one of those concepts that traps and enslaves us. We can't attain it but we strive for it anyway. A very destructive vicious circle.
changeling
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OUTLAW
Purps..Good thread.....I don`t want someones idea of cookie cutter perfection..Almost no one likes exactly the same thing..We all want our own little variances..It may be the same item but it`s nice to have it taylored to our own wants and needs...OUTLAW