But can you explain what the term means? I haven't heard it before and I have read a lot about early Judaism. It would help even to have a basic explanation of the term.
To Narkisis
by Vernon Williams 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
The notions of "three days and three nights" in the grave and "resurrected on the third day" are mutually exclusive regardless of the Gospel narratives, and are best explained as literary allusions, respectively to Jonah and Hosea.
What does the phrase "mutually exclusive" mean?
As Leolaia said (thank you ) it's either "three days and three nights" or "on the third day" which implies a shorter period.
Jesus was very specific about the "three day" concept: "....tear it down and it will be rebuilt in three days..."
This is yet another expression in John 2, en trisin hèmerais (cf. Mark 14:58// dia triôn hèmerôn); closer to "on the third day" (implying that the "work is done" within three days or by the third day) although a little less precise.
When I wrote "regardless of the Gospel narratives" I meant the Passion / empty tomb narratives which further reduce the time span by suggesting that Jesus was resurrected during the night or at daybreak after the Sabbath.
Were there "rolling sabaths" or "festival days" that would have had the same wording?
I assumed that by "rolling sabbaths" you meant festival days called "sabbaths" and thus susceptible to be confused with the weekly Sabbath, as appears in a number of harmonising speculations. That such a festival day is meant by "sabbath" at any point in the Gospels is extremely unlikely. It would imply that either the Gospel authors have misunderstood earlier sources (and then it is rather moot to attempt at harmonising their statements) or that they deliberately meant to confuse their readers (to whom "sabbath" without other precision could only mean "weekly sabbath"). Moreover, the only trick that might extend the time span to "three days and three nights" is to take the indications "before the sabbath" (for the burial) and "after the sabbath" (for the resurrection / empty tomb stories) as referring to two different "sabbaths". As I pointed out above, the use of the article rather indicates that the same sabbath is meant. Again, if anything else is meant the authors have left no chance to their readers...
I would add that the festival days are usually called shabbatôn, not shabbath, in Hebrew (the only exception I can see being Leviticus 16:31 where the two words appear together, shabbath shabbatôn), and that this term is regularly translated anapausis, "rest," rather than transliterated, in the LXX. This is still another confirmation, imo, that sabbaton in the Gospels does not mean "festival day" -- although the peculiar expression of John 19:31 (this day of sabbath was a great one) may refer to a weekly sabbath which coincides with a festival day.
That the sabbaton in the sense of "weekly" sabbath could not "roll" in any way is obvious from the casuistics apparent in the Gospels (and the Talmud) that it has to be broken when it coincides with another scheduled duty, e.g. circumcision on the eighth day (John 7:22f; cf. Matthew 12:5).
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JosephMalik
Vernon said: The Jews, if I am correct, counted a "day" as 24 hours from sunset to sunset.
True
Vernon said: Jesus was resurrected sometime after sundown on Saturday night.
True perhaps closer to very early Sunday morning
Vernon said: He was to be in the grave three days.
True. Three days and three nights actually but not complete ones. Therefore something less than 72 hours total. To show this clearly we have:
Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Vernon said: If we back up three days, it means Jesus died before sundown on Wed. NOT Friday
If we go back three days from Sunday afternoon as in Luke 24:21 we have before sundown Thursday not Wed..
Vernon said: They wanted him dead before the Sabbath. The Sabbath is Sat.
The Sabbath is usually Saturday, but during Passover (also called the festival of unfermented cakes) if the start of Passover should be on a Saturday then the end of Passover would by Law then be on a Friday or seven days later which makes Friday and Saturday Sabbath days of 48 hours duration. This makes a High or Great Sabbath and is not unusual during such 7 day festivals. A day of Preparation also precedes this two day Sabbath as this is the time when new grain is prepared for the 7th day of the festival. This is so because Passover and the wave harvest come together at this time thus linking Passover to Pentecost. This is why De 16:8 says: Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do not work therein. If we read further we will see that this is in regard to the wave harvest. Why six days on unfermented bread when we know it is seven days? Because the unfermented bread eaten on the mandatory seventh day was made from the new harvest thus completing Passover and starting the wave harvest. Six days of old harvest, one day of the new harvest for the proper total of seven. There was also a day of preparation for this bread that preceeded that seventh day. The bread was the Passover, the important element that made up the feast. The Lamb was only required for the first day and our Lord ate this Lamb so the first day of the festival was now history. Communion therefore became bread and wine not Bread and Lamb. It was the blood of the Lamb and not the Lamb itself that was so meaningful. These are the important elements many miss.
Vernon said: Not only did the Jews have the sabbath as Sat, but, they, also, had "rolling Sabbaths" and, when Jesus died, Thursday was one of these.
Friday was one of these making a great Sabbath. The days had to be consecutive.
Joseph
P.S. What does all this mean then? That the third hour on which our Lord was nailed up Mark 15:25 was actually the third hour of the night of Wed or 9PM our time. Our Lord was before Pilate on the 6th hour or around noon John 19:14. The third hour after the sixth hour was then night not daytime. Our Lord hung for some 15 hours before the account picks up again the next afternoon Matt 24:7. Then it became dark for three hours Matt 27:45, It was now Thusday and our Lord finally died after this.
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Narkissos
Lol, JosephMalik, I was thinking of you while writing my last post...
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Leolaia
Wow.
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Narkissos
Pilate must have been of a very sceptical nature to wonder if Jesus were already dead (Mark 15:44).
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quietlyleaving
vernon interesting discussion
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JosephMalik
Lol, JosephMalik, I was thinking of you while writing my last post...
Narkisos,
Yes, we covered this several times before. I would have responded yesterday but the net was down for some reason and I just got around to it. The most important event in history and so many do not understand it. If they put the texts together the way I did sequentially then perhaps the light would go on. Then they would also learn what an introduction is like such as the one on the feast in John who did not bother to cover the bread and wine but did cover what happened afterwards. And then they would learn that Judas did partake of the bread and wine. Finally they would learn that the first memorial would be a year later when these meaningful symbol-isms were now legally valid.
Let me add this: Pilate must have been of a very sceptical nature to wonder if Jesus were already dead (Mark 15:44).
He was careful and had to be sure. But the way the texts interleave, how they skipped time, how they did fills, how they compared the texts to each other is a wonderful study.
Joseph
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Vernon Williams
Joseph, Nark, Leo......,
First a note to nvr:
On the Cuban girl: I came up with that on my own...I, really, should not even have such thoughts filtering through my mind.....really. I have, time to time, thought of "island scenes" like this...wish I had arranged my life to see a few....
I have somewhat "surrendered" to the reality of the who, what, and where that makes up my life. Tonight, I was thinking (as I was digging egg shells, chopped up chicks, and some other muck out of a vacumn system....yuck) how we need to be content that, in some way, as we submit to Christ, He is using us for a far greater purpose than we know....so need to strive for patience and long suffering.
Still yet, starry night, waves making that little splashing noise, and bronze skin and dark hair in the moonlight.....well, IF things had been a weeee bit different......
NOTE OVER
Thank you for your explanations. I started to read them, however, the last eleven hours have numbed my brain to the point I can not reason on your fine words. I will study them the next couple of days...I am sure I will tax your patience a bit more....
Gratefull for you kindness,
V