To Narkisis

by Vernon Williams 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Vernon Williams

  Nark,

  I have a question for you (and, anyone interested):

  The Jews, if I am correct, counted a "day" as 24 hours from sunset to sunset.

  Jesus was reserected sometime after sundown on Saturday night.

  He was to be in the grave three days.

  If we back up three days, it means Jesus died before sundown on Wed. NOT Friday.

  They wanted him dead before the Sabbath. The Sabbath is Sat.

  The best explanation I have heard, IF it is true, is:

  Not only did the Jews have the sabbath as Sat, but, they, also, had "rolling Sabbaths" and, when Jesus died, Thursday was one of these.

  Any thoughts?

  V
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  Vernon Williams

  I posted a thread for you, if you have the time.

  V
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  Leolaia

  What is a "rolling sabbath"?
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  Narkissos

  Hi Vernon,

  I don't think the canonical Gospels leave us much room to interpret "sabbath" as anything else than the weekly sabbath. Cf. the likely earliest wording in Mark 15:42 (for the time of burial): "it was the Day-of-Preparation (paraskeuè), that is, the Day-before-sabbath (prosabbaton)" -- such quasi-technical terms are quite unlikely to be used, without explicitation, for something else (e.g. festival days) than their natural weekly reference. And the indication "when the sabbath was over" (diagenomenou tou sabbatou)in 16:1// is clearly a backward reference to the same sabbath, implying, in the simplest reading, one night-day-night period of time in between. This could possibly be stretched to one day more if one insists that 15:42 calls "the day before sabbath" the Jewish "day" that just started with the evening (meaning that Jesus was crucified on Thursday and buried on Thursday night = Friday by Jewish reckoning), but in view of the Greek wording and the general Hellenistic perspective of Mark it is extremely unlikely imo -- and Luke rules this out by adding that "the Sabbath was beginning," 23:54. Or, this could be reduced by one night according to one minoritary interpretation of Matthew (that the women went to the tomb as soon as the "first day of the week" started by Jewish reckoning, i.e. on Saturday night rather than Sunday morning -- which Mark clearly rules out, speaking of "dawn, when the sun had risen").

  The biggest chronological discrepancy between the Synoptics on the one hand and John on the other hand, is that the former have Jesus crucified on the (Jewish) day of Passover, i.e. after the Passover meal, while the latter has Jesus crucified the day before Passover, i.e. at the time the lambs were slaughtered for the Passover meal. But this has no incidence on the day of the week (it would actually imply another year).

  The notions of "three days and three nights" in the grave and "resurrected on the third day" are mutually exclusive regardless of the Gospel narratives, and are best explained as literary allusions, respectively to Jonah and Hosea.
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  Vernon Williams

  Nark,

  Thank you for your explanation: forgive me....I am lost...

  The notions of "three days and three nights" in the grave and "resurrected on the third day" are mutually exclusive regardless of the Gospel narratives, and are best explained as literary allusions, respectively to Jonah and Hosea.

  What does the phrase "mutually exclusive" mean?

  Jesus was very specific about the "three day" concept: "....tear it down and it will be rebuilt in three days..."

  This is a seventy two hour period. He does not sound as if he is referencing an "allusion" as he is so specific.

  I have ask several about this and all, pastors included, just blow it off.

  Were there "rolling sabaths" or "festival days" that would have had the same wording?

  What is the connection in all this between the Passover and the weekly Sabbath?

  Forgive me...in the are of figuring time: years of kings, chronology, stuff like this: my mind goes into lock up. I am, ususally, above average in figuring out anything in writing (factoring in my lack of education as I am, mostly, self taught), however, this area is a big, big exception.

  Thank you for sorting out my ramblings.

  Yours in this specific struggle,

  V
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  nvrgnbk

  I'd rather be rolling a............than have a rolling sabbath. LOL!

  Sorry, I'll leave now.

  I'm going, I'm going.
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  Vernon Williams

  nvr,

  We are having this dignified, all "spiritual-eeee" discussion and you post something that, in my mind, conjurs up the thoughts of a beautiful Cuban girl rolling a cigar on a firm, bronzed thigh while a gentle breeze pushes thick, black hair back off a slightly damp brow....

  Shame on you!

  Twice, shame on you! (and, I do not, even, like cigars...)

  Ok, Nark....we can proceed.....

  V
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  nvrgnbk

  We are having this dignified, all "spiritual-eeee" discussion and you post something that, in my mind, conjurs up the thoughts of a beautiful Cuban girl rolling a cigar on a firm, bronzed thigh while a gentle breeze pushes thick, black hair back off a slightly damp brow....

  That's one of the most beautiful images I've ever had the pleasure of reading. Did you just come up with that V?
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  Leolaia

  Vernon.....They are mutually exclusive because the reference to the "third day" specifically excludes a full 72-hour period. This is an ordinal, not a cardinal number like "three days and three nights". Resurrection on the "third day" means that only two complete days have passed. This should tell you already that several different concepts about the length of this period existed in the gospel traditions.

  He does not sound as if he is referencing an "allusion" as he is so specific.

  The allusion to Jonah is certainly clear in Matthew 12:40-41, which is the first reference to the three days in the gospel (cf. 16:21-23, 26:61).

  Were there "rolling sabaths" or "festival days" that would have had the same wording?

  Again, I asked what are "rolling sabbaths" supposed to be? Please explain what this is supposed to refer to. Is this something that is otherwise attested as part of Jewish liturgical practice, or is this something that is proposed simply to resolve the conflict between the gospel traditions irrespective of what was really practiced in the first century?
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  Vernon Williams

  I do not know if a "rolling sabath" exists. This was a term a friend of mine told me as explained by his pastor. I thought Nark might know. I need to look up the scriptures you mentioned....

  V