Musical Dishonesty - What next?

by hillary_step 82 Replies latest social entertainment

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  tijkmo

  HS

  Then you need to practice more before you sing live

  yes that might work..something else that i have noticed is that if i am on after other bands then i will have spent a couple of hours shouting over their deafening noise..this shouldn't affect established performers tho since they will have dressing rooms and warn up areas to retire to..still at least i don't have cigarette smoke to contend with.

  This issue is not with lyric or melody, it is with performance.

  yes but should a performer not perform live if he can, say, write good songs, record them perfectly but not sing them well live. i like snow patrol but i have never heard the singer sing well live and because of that i won't go and see them live. but if i knew that autotune would solve that problem then i think it is legitimate.

  Music as an art is serious business, and in the long run as serious as any other industry or discipline, perhaps even more so

  well yes as an art it is serious, but can't agree with it being any more than that i'm afraid..and yes i say that as a musician and music lover.

  What do you mean by sucks by the way....lol

  well i could have said it blows...cos ironically that means the same thing (even Yes couldn't make that song sound good lol)
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  exwitless

  Allow me to interject that Josh Groban did an awesome remake of America. It's just him playing a piano and singing. Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52k-OCt2Egg
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  tijkmo

  Josh Groban did an awesome remake of America

  no he didn't
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  exwitless

  no he didn't

  Aw!!!
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  sixsixsixtynine

  HS-

  I don't really understand why this is important to you. Judging from the artists you've mentioned as liking in this and other threads, I doubt any of them have or would ever use an Auto-Tune type program. Why do you care if artists you don't like or respect do?

  By definition nearly all modern recordings are 'dishonest', as what we hear coming from the speakers is never what it would sound like to us in person. Most drum kits have a mike on every drum and cymbal plus overheads. Is that how our ears would here it live? Compression, limiting, reverb, overdubs, multitracking, are all also 'dishonest', do you oppose them as well.

  Stevie Wonder, Prince, Paul McCartney and many others have made albums where they played every instrument, overdubing them one by one. Is that 'dishonest'?

  Jeff Beck, who you raved about in a recent thread has used loops, sampling, and sequencing on his last few albums. 'Dishonest'?

  Those 'backwards' guitar parts that Jimi Hendrix played were just reversed tape. Was he being 'dishonest'?

  About the only way to get a truly 'honest' recording of how we would actually hear the live performance would be to use a binaural recording technique. How many of the thousands of Lp's and CD's that you own were recorded that way?

  Ultimateley, I feel that even if an artist uses Auto-tune or other 'studio tricks' it still comes down to whether or not the song is any good. And if it is who cares what tools they used to make it? A good song is a good song.
• 

  Twitch

  I have found that many drummers 'overdrum' and loose the bass, often due to an inflated ego. Once this happens the only people who would be impressed by the results are drunks. Many drummers do not read, and this imho is one reason why cohesion is often lost so easily in an amateur drummer. If any player needs to be disciplined and to learn that what you do not say is often more important than what you do say, it is the drummer. A drummer with an inflated ego is a common but dangerous thing.

  The test of the true worth of a drummer comes when he plays, not with his regular band, but does a session with another band. His failings become apparent very rapidly. Jazz drummers are used to playing and jamming with numerous players, and that is why imho a mid-grade jazz drummer often outclasses the best of rock drummers.

  That having been said, some make the bridge between rock and jazz look very easy. Take a listen to John Marshall, Tony Oxley, Bryan Spring, Pip Pyle, Dennis Elliot, etc. These drummers are all consumate professionals with a staggering repetoire, all learned by spreading their talents far and wide.

  HS

  I thought we were talking about vocal pitch correctors,.....

  Twitch (who still likes rock drummers other than Ringo Starr and the less than perfect one he has anyways klass)
• 

  Little Drummer Boy

  Josh Groban did an awesome remake of America

  no he didn't

  tijkmo

  Duuuude. You doged a massive bullet there. You have noooo clue how rabid a Grobanite exwitless is. Yikes. She's got the coffe mugs, key chains, posters, every CD, DVD, multiple copies ('cause, ya know it has that one new song on it). ____________________________________________________________ HS, drummer ego and over-playing the part is a huge problem for many drummers. I agree with you there 100%. Less is more many times. It doesn't matter how fancy you are with fills if you can't keep everybody together. I will also say that it can cut the other way. I have more often than not been in bands where at least one other member wouldn't submit to my timing and would constantly fight me. Usually a lead guitar player (and we don't even need to get started about ego there). __________________________________________________________ And despite what some may feel as to classifying a recording or live performance technique as dishonest, I agree with hillary_step about the auto-tune gear. I do feel that it is different somehow than just adding in other tracks on a recording or doing multiple takes to get it right. Using auto-tune for anything other than minor track repair speaks to me of lack of musicianship. Adding in multiple tracks that you couldn't possibly do live, playing tracks backwards (the Jimi Hendrix reference), etc., those things to me speak to the creative process not dishonesty in the music. Think Pink Floyd. Massive use of synths, tons of tracks, but still, great music and great creativity. Stuff like that doesn't seem dishonest to me. I expect music that is composed of many, many tracks to sound much different live than the recording and that is OK. Now, whether or not I would choose to see a band that I think couldn't pull off a good live show is a different matter.
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  hillary_step

  six....sixty,

  I don't really understand why this is important to you. Judging from the artists you've mentioned as liking in this and other threads, I doubt any of them have or would ever use an Auto-Tune type program. Why do you care if artists you don't like or respect do?

  Man, do you have a penchant for missing the point, and I mention this as an historical issue with you.

  When a person pays money to hear a person sing, takes the trouble to support their performance and finds that not only cannot the 'singer' sing, but that their voices are artifically adjusted to actually sing in tune, this is dishonest and verges on fraud. If you cannot see that this effects the broad-sweep of musical recording of all genres and lowers the credibility and authority of the 'art', then what more can I say.

  What happens in a studio with loops etc, is not even close to resembling the situation that I note above. Jeff Beck does not need anything to help him play in tune, and as a guitarist you well know that.

  Just to give you an example of how wrong you are, and that some artists are equally dismayed as I am : One of the Spice Girls, who have just gathered together their cretinous pap for a world tour took on the Daily Mail who suggested that she used auto-tune. She was outraged and has threatened to sue them, and told the reporter claiming this in front of the live press that he was "talking s**t". Of course she did not speak for the others with her, and this is the only one of the girls who apparently has a trained voice. Now why would this person feel so degraded by this suggestion?

  Ultimateley, I feel that even if an artist uses Auto-tune or other 'studio tricks' it still comes down to whether or not the song is any good. And if it is who cares what tools they used to make it? A good song is a good song.

  Auto-tune differs, as I have noted, at a base level from these other studio enhancements that you mention. Nothing like them! I know studio engineers who refuse to work with auto-tune, but use these other techniques. Why do you think that is?

  Think of it this way, some Jazz sax player refuse to put a pickup in their loudspeakers as they do not think the sound is pure, others have no problem with this including me. Elton Dean's saxello being a case in point - I love his sound. Both these types of player would spit blood if they heard of a musician who was using auto-tune to ensure that they played in tune.

  HS
• 

  frankiespeakin

  HS,

  I'm not that familar with all the sophisticated elctronic gadgets now in use, but the bottom line is making money or not making money if we look at it as a business. I play mainly acostic guitar, I do it for pleasure, it would seem to me that with autotunning, and other corrective devices would take away a lot of the fun and the feeling of mastery of one's axe in making the music.
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  sixsixsixtynine

  HS-

  Man, do you have a penchant for missing the point, and I mention this as an historical issue with you.

  Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as missing the point. And I certainly do have a history of the previous.

  When a person pays money to hear a person sing, takes the trouble to support their performance and finds that not only cannot the 'singer' sing, but that their voices are artifically adjusted to actually sing in tune, this is dishonest and verges on fraud. If you cannot see that this effects the broad-sweep of musical recording of all genres and lowers the credibility and authority of the 'art', then what more can I say.

  What you fail to understand, is that music means different things to different people. Not everyone is as concerned about musical purity and 'honesty' as you are. Do you really think that the people who "take the trouble to support" a Spice Girls, Madonna, Cher or any other 'theatrical' type perfomance care if the performers use Auto-tune? I don't think so. So again I ask, why should you? You have no respect for that type of music anyway. WHY do you care?

  Not all music is 'art', sometimes it's just entertainment. Would you similarily dismiss a movie as 'dishonest' if the actor uses a stunt double? Or if they use computer generated special effects?

  Auto-tune differs, as I have noted, differs at a base level from these other studio enhancements that you mention. Nothing like them!

  I totally disagree. Punching in, overdubs, loops, samples and all the signal processing that is used amount to the same thing. The end result is a recording that was not performed in real time, and acoustically could never have happened in the real world. To me, correcting the pitch on vocals is no more 'dishonest' than the rest of these common practices.

  I know studio engineers who refuse to work with auto-tune, but use these other techniques. Why do you think that is?

  For the same reasons you are opposed to it, I imagine. Doesn't mean they're right, just opinionated. Do they also refuse to punch in vocal parts, to correct spots where the singer was out of tune? I doubt it.