Wow Gary, don't sugarcoat it, tell us how you really feel!
My JW Friends Visited My Daughter & Wanna Keep It Quiet From Other JWs
by minimus 38 Replies latest jw friends
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changeling
I'm so glad I can now finally treat others as I would like to be treated, not how I was told to treat them by the WT! I can be nice to whomever I want!
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Es
It just amazes me how the can justify it to go to a so called worldy wedding where both the hubby and wife are not JW, but they cant, wont or get into trouble if they go to a wedding where one of the partners is a JW.
PATHETIC,
Im glad this couple went and saw your daughter it was nice of them
es
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Vernon Williams
Still, Gary, Min, Flip, and all,
IMHO, MOST JWs are NOT good people: reason: they will lie as a pledge of loyalty if called to do so.
A person capable of lying is capable of anything.
Anything.....
Still, I do not count you in that group. This will cause you a great many problems and, eventially, will manifest itself in a clean break...of some sort.
The non-liers are, simply, stealth apostates...even they do not know it, nor do others....yet.
An opinion,
V
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greendawn
Are the JWs collectively good or bad? There is no straight forward answer becaus ethey are a very heterogeneous collective just like all otehr collectives we can't generalise and say they are all bad (or all good) so it depends. Some JWs are bad intrinsically and some are bad through coercion and ignorance and that's why many leave once they realise what's really going on.
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Vernon Williams
There is a straight answer:
Collectively, they are "bad." Read this board and come to another conclusion....
Independently, they are are part of the collective: bad, or they are apostates: either in seed form, growing, or full grown and gone.
As I told a brother in the Spanish cong. here in Monett a few years ago:
"A God Lover and a Truth Seeker WILL, eventially, be thrown out of the WT."
It is a proven fact. This baord is the Witness to that.
V
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Mum
While it is true that we can judge behavior alone, how can we factor in mental illness and other factors, such as being controlled by others.
People who are kidnapped develop Stockholm Syndrome, a condition that leads to their identifying with the beliefs and agenda of their captors, even caring about their captors. Elizabeth Smart was concerned about what was going to happen to the people who kidnapped her. If someone controls your environment and what information you are allowed to take in, they control you.
I can't imagine a person who hasn't done something he or she is not proud of. It's part of the human condition.
Regards,
SandraC
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undercover
Gary,
I've always enjoyed your insight and your experiences. You have suffered at the hands of this religion and for that you have reason to be upset and angry.
However, this statement:
I actually like Hitler much better than Jehovah's Witnesses. Hitler never hurt me personally. Hitler was never in my home or told my sons to shun me. Witnesses did!
is disturbing to me.
While the religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses may be responsible for many hurts and even some deaths due to their beliefs and policies, to claim that because Hitler never hurt you so therefore he isn't as bad as a group that has hurt you, is allowing resentment and anger to cloud your judgement and your thinking.
Just as not all German soldiers fighting for the homeland were not privy to the horrors commited by the Nazis, not all JWs are privy to the inner workings of the Watchtower Society. Hitler and his henchmen were pure evil. The common soldier on the battlefield was just doing his job and supporting what he believed. When many found out the horrrors of the concentration camps and human right violations, they were ashamed and repentant. Not that it lessened the pain of what happened. But it showed that not all German people, or their soldiers, were bad people. Many were misled and became tools of the regime.
Similarly, the leaders of the Watchtower Society are the ones responsible for the policies and doctrines that cause many to be treated harshly and wrongly. The average, everyday Witness is just a pawn in the game of power played by the Governing Body. While it may be the individual Witness, who caused the hurt you feel, it is because they have been fooled and are being used themselves. They thought they were doing what was right because that's what they were fooled into believing.
That's why I've always thought it was important to not "hate" JWs, but to pity them and feel for them as victims, as a group. There are mnay individuals inside the ranks of the JWs who are sly and cunning con artists. But that's another discussion. It is the Watchtower and Bible Society that can be held in contempt and hated, as the perpetrators of the wrongs committed by their victim followers. I can understand holding resentment and disliking individual JWs that have shown themselves to be bad people, but I think lumping all of the rank and file into one group of hated individuals is a mistake.
Even comparing the Governing Body to Hitler is a stretch. Though the GB may be responsible for some deaths they have not actively sought the destruction of whole races of people and carried out the genocide to further that goal. One may argue that they wish for a similar genocide at the hand of God but they only preach it, they don't try to carry out the executions.
Like I said before, I've always appreciated your input. That's why I felt the need to respond to your comment, otherwise I would just dismiss it as the ramblings of someone unstable. But I know that's not the case with you and that's why I was bothered by it.
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garybuss
Hi undercover, Sorry you are disturbed.
I use three tools a lot in analyzing something. One is to reduce to the ridiculous, another is to take the principle to the extreme, and the third is to take it out of context.
You wrote: "to claim that because Hitler never hurt you so therefore he isn't as bad as a group that has hurt you,"
I never wrote that. I wrote: "Hitler might have to be called good because he may have been deluded." That's based on the principle I read here (that I don't share) that a person is not "bad" if he isn't aware of all the facts or if he's being manipulated. My point was that Hitler WAS bad, not by his motives, not because he was deluded, not because he might have been manipulated, but because of his bad behaviors.
I'm judging Hitler by the same standards I'm judging Witnesses who hurt people. I don't care if the Witness who told my son to shun me is hypnotized or deluded or has the best motives in the world. I'm judging him by his behaviors. Patty Hearst went to prison.
I also wrote: "I actually like Hitler much better than Jehovah's Witnesses." That's true for me. I'll also write that I condone Hitler and I do not condone the Witnesses who came into my home and messed with my family.
I don't hate the Witnesses that did that. Hate's not a strong enough word. I don't excuse the Witnesses that did that. They did it with knowledge, free will, and malice. Anyone who protects the Witnesses by using high control tactics and who advocates against me, my family, or my friends is my enemy. I hold them responsible for their own behaviors and I advocate to their detriment.
If the people who did that leave the Witnesses, they remain my enemy. The fact that they were Witnesses is at most a perihelial consideration. -
minimus
Gary, Undercover and I totally agree on this one. I think your reasoning lacks balance.
Some Muslims teach hatred and death. Not every individual in that belief system feels the same way.
Some Roman Catholics believe (based on the Church's teaching) that all non Catholics will burn in hell. Not all individual Roman Catholics have the same view.
Some "Christian" oriented political/religious groups believe that abortionists are murderers and feel justified in killing them off before they can kill more babies. But not all anti-abortioists are murderers.
Some (many) Southerners view blacks as inferior. That is to some, an evil viewpoint. But not all southerners want to go back to slavery.
Some Hasidic Jews want to violently push their brand of religion. Not all Hasidics are evil.
Just because an unsavory group (depending upon the view) sees things a certain way----even militantly, it doesn't mean that ALL the INDIVIDUALS feel the same.