JWs vs. Jesus Christ

by R.F. 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  R.F.

  Choosing life made a statement in another thread saying that just mentioning Jesus too much will get you a concerned look from other JWs. I thought "oh how true that is!" The thing that is intriguing to me is the fact JWs are so quick to state that they are the closest thing to first century Christianity. That has to be the one of the biggest FALSE arguments you can hear from them.

  (Romans

  1:1) . . .Paul,a slave of Jesus Christ and called to be an apostle, separated to God’s good news. . .

  (Galatians

  1:10) . . .Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I were yet pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave.. . .

  (James

  1:1) . . .James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about. . .

  How often do you hear JWs say they are one of Christ's slaves??

  Look at how many times "Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus", or "Jesus" were pertained to in letters by first century Christians in the NWT.

  Paul's Epistle to the Romans - 32 times

  Paul's first Epistle to the Corinthians - 21

  2nd Epistle to Corinthians - 9

  Paul's epistle to the Galatians - 18

  Paul's epistle to the Ephesians - 23

  Paul's epistle to the Philippians - 23

  to the Colossians - 6

  1st epistle to the Thessalonians - 8

  2nd epistle to the Thessalonians - 10

  1st epistle to Timothy - 14

  2nd to Timothy - 13

  to Titus - 4

  to Philemon - 7

  to the Hebrews - 4

  Epistle of James - 2

  1st Epistle of Peter - 9

  2nd Epistle of Peter - 8

  1st Epistle of John - 12

  2nd of John - 2

  Epistle of Jude - 6

  Now keep in mind that many of these epistles were quite short in comparison to some of the other lengthy letters, and this isn't even considering the amount of times that Jesus was made reference to as "Lord" or "Son of God". The early Christians certainly weren't ashamed of speaking of Jesus, and i'm quite sure they didn't get dirty looks from other Christians for mentioning him so much.

  It's a rarity, at least for me, to hear Jesus being mentioned by JWs outside of congregation meeting comments. But in casual conversation we all can attest to how it's so easy for them to praise the Organization and the "faithful and discreet slave".

  Recently, right before I made the break out of my relationship with my former fiancee, I had gotten into the mode of praising Jesus and mentioning him alot. It was strange the way she reacted to it. She kept saying how something was different about me and I knew what she was pertaining to. She didn't want to say what it was, but she was sure to give praise to "Jehovah's Organization" as a counter to my efforts of praising Jesus.

  So why the concerned looks as a result of Jesus praising? Well from my viewpoint it can only mean that it's because this group doesn't have God's backing, that they aren't the photocopy of 1st Century Christianity that they claim to be. It's obvious that they don't understand a thing about the real Jesus.
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  emptywords

  Because JW don't worship Jesus, (Mth 6:9) they worship Jehovah, which they believe to be the father of Jesus, who came to die as a ransom willingly, to show not only love for the world of mankind but also to his father Jehovah God, they believe that Jesus is the only means through which to approach God in prayer, that through him their is no salvation, but they do not prayer to Jesus or in any hold him in a superior position, every one is subordinate to the father including Jesus. Also that Jesus Christ came to vindicate Jehovah's name as a perfect person and gained for every one what Adam lost, so that all may be alive through Jesus and death is to be swolled up for every more.

  Though he is king of God's kingdom he is their only because he is placed their by Jehovah. So as said to the average JW Jehovah is the higher authority above every other, as no one was created before him, and through Christ all things were created (Col 12: 15-17 ASV), therefore Jesus is the only direct creation of Jehovah and therefore only Jehovah deserves to be worshiped.
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  LiveLife

  Romans 8:9-17 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.
  So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live in accord with the flesh; for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will live. For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.

  Underlined are the instances of the Greek "en", highlighted are the instances of "kata". Kata means in harmony with or in accord with. En means in. Kollao means joined together, fastened, glued ... it doesn't appear here, but Paul knew the word and could have used it here if that is what he meant to say. (1 Corinthians 6:17)

  Romans 14:5-9 One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

  If the instances of kurios (alternatively: kyrios), i.e. "Lord", were consistently replaced with "Jehovah" in this paragraph, the last sentence would read "For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Jehovah over both the dead and the living."

  There is no question about it: Jehovah's Witnesses take glory, authority, and responsibility meant for Jesus and give it to Jehovah. How is that any better than taking glory, authority, or responsibility of God's and giving it to someone else?
• 

  emptywords

  I wonder how Jesus would feel taking glory from Jehovah. John 17:3 Acts4:12
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  LiveLife

  I wonder how Jehovah would feel about glory being taken from His Son.

  Revelation 5:12, 13
  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

  It seems the Father and the angels believe the Son is worthy of glory Jehovah's Witnesses reserve for Jehovah alone. Jesus didn't do obeisance to Satan, but the angels did obeisance to Jesus.

  Matthew 4:9, 10
  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

  The Greek word for worship is the same as the one used in Hebrews.

  Hebrews 1:3-6
  Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

  The bringing of the firstbegotten into the world had already happened and Jesus was worshipped, in exactly the same way that only a true god should be worshipped. This doesn't prove a trinity. It proves that it is appropriate to worship Jesus, too. The Bible says so, directly. The angels, who are far above even men, were told by God to worship the Son.

  Something lingers of the JW taint in that it must be either one way or the other. Why cannot both fundamentalist Trinitarians be in error and Jehovah's Witnesses be in error?
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  Zico

  Jesus is mentioned more than twice as many times as his father in the New Testament, so who would you assume was the central figure in first-century Christianity?
  
  The WT actually have a box in their Revelation book about how the first song book they produced had twice as many songs about Jesus as they did Jehovah. The second was about equal, and the most recent has 4 times as many about Jehovah as they do Jesus. It says it's in line with Jesus' comment that 'The father is greater than I' The writers of the epistles would have disagreed.
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  Watkins

  This might be how Jesus felt about 'taking' glory from his Father -

  John 17:24 - "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory,the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

  And this is possibly what John thought of Jesus' God-given glory -

  John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

  Watkins
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  LiveLife

  Great additions, Watkins.
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  Watkins

  Thanks LiveLife - but you started it!

  But wait! There's more! Lol - an info-mercial for Jesus!

  From what source does Jesus receive his glory? From men? Uh, no... (John 5:41)

  John 17:22,24 - And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

  1 Peter 1:20-21 - He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

  2 Peter 1:17 - For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” [NKJV]

  Matthew 24:30 - Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  Matthew 25:31 - “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

  Luke 9:26 - For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

  John 2:11 - This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.

  Hebrews 3:3 - For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house.

  Psalms 2:11,12 - Serve the LORD with fear,
  And rejoice with trembling.
  Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
  And you perish in the way,
  When His wrath is kindled but a little.
  Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

  John 22,23 - For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all shouldhonor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

  I'm sooo tired of being accused of assigning too much honor and glory to the Son of God. There's no such thing as too much - it's like being accused of being too happy! This does not mean that I think Jesus is God - I don't. But he is far and away the subject of more honor and glory than the WT teaches - they are in grave error in this matter, imho. I've heard the fear behind the comments on this subject - fear of honoring the Son more than the Father - but folks, as we see from the above scriptures - that's an impossibility! It's not an all for the One and nothing for the other proposition - there is a balance to be found and I pray that all do find it. There is no fear in love - so if you love Jehovah, you must have no fear in loving His Son. There is no way to give glory to Christ Jesus while forgetting where his glory originates. To accknowledge Jesus is not taking anything away from Jehovah - it's His plan to start with for Heaven's sake! He's the One that made His Son the subject of our love, because he is 'the Son of His love', and our love for the Son transfers to our Father also - they're in this together - they 'are one' - inseparable! They glorify each other! Everything is through the Son - our worship, our faith and belief - it's all through Jesus, because of Jesus - he is THE Way, the only Way to reconciliation with God and our ultimate salvation. If you think you can 'climb up' while holding him at arm's length you're mistaken - misled by the wtbts' devaluation. Please read the gospels without any WT guides - just read it. The WT literature doesn't hi-lite the scriptures that focus our attention on Jesus' God-given glory. They only reinterate the verses that uphold their teachings on the subject. But if you just read Jesus' own words, I swear - in short order you'll be marveling over all those verses that you seem to be reading for the very first time... "Wow - were those verses always in there?" Lol - it will absolutely amaze you, I promise. Be prepared - the scriptures themselves, read in context, will overturn some previously held 'notions' that you were taught by the WT. But the Word holds, reveals, and leads us to the truth. And Jesus Christ IS the Truth. The scriptures say that he must know us. Now, how is he going to know us if we don't accknowledge him with the same love, honor and glory assigned him by his own Father, as we are instructed to do by the very God we claim to know and love?

  Just some additional thoughts...

  Watkins
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  greendawn

  This is a crucial issue becaus eit shows how much the JWs are a judaising organisation making jehovah the centre of their religious life whereas clearly in the early church Christ was the central person. One will never hear a dub saying things like: may Jesus help you, Jesus willing, with Jesus's help.

  Yet Jesus is the direct head of the church and not jehovah, and he is the one that purchased and owns her. The Father Himself granted him as much so they belong to Him. Note also the JWs do not even bother calling themselves the church of Christ, they are the organisation of jehovah.

  Whereas Christians are supposed to add members to the church (the body of Christ) the dubs prevent them from becoming a part by shutting almost all of them out of the New Covenant.

  I say search for the Jews that are running this org, isn't it obvious enough? The Christ and the church have been marginalised to a degree that is very revealing about those directing this diabolically deceitful and two faced organisation: judaism pretending to be Christianity.