Would (a) less-than-good god(s) be worthy of interest?

by Narkissos 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    As I was reading AlanF's thread on "Intelligent Design" (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/136111/2.ashx) I was stopped at the following comment of his:

    Having only got through chapter 3 of Behe's book, I wasn't aware that he actually claims that God created the exquisitely designed malaria bug. For any normal theology, this is completely self-defeating. JWs have traditionally claimed that critters like predators somehow just changed their ways in order to become such, and have vaguely claimed that all disease is the product of man's fall into sin. Fundies are even more vague, simply claming that all such nastiness is the result of "the curse" but never actually connecting the dots, i.e., that God must have deliberately created all manner of nastiness in order to create "the curse". None of these morons ever squares the circle by dealing with the fact that a God who would create such nastiness is not worth anyone's time, let alone worship.

    This got me thinking, especially the last sentence. But I didn't want to hijack a scientific thread with a purely theological issue and thought it might be better to start another one.

    To the "all-good" God of Christianity the "created evil" is indeed damning. But, in fact, I believe it is damning through an unexpected effect of Christian morals. The "god" of the material world, aka reality, simply doesn't match the "God of Love" -- and the Gnostics logically drew the conclusion that they were not the same. The devil, the Fall, or Sin in orthodox Christianity also try to account for the "gap" between "God" and "reality," perhaps in a less satisfactory manner.

    But let's think out of the Christian or Gnostic boxes for a moment. Let's imagine that reality, violent and unpleasant as it often appears, does reflect (or, is aptly personified by) a similarly violent and unpleasant god -- or gods. Would such gods be unworthy of interest? Wouldn't they, to the contrary, require all our attention, including our (very interested) worship if they did ask for it, or if it were a way to deal with them?

    By asking those purely theoretical questions, I think we get closer to the mindset of Ancient religion. The gods of the Ancient world were neither purely good nor beneficial. They were potentially harmful and violent (just as reality) and for this very reason it was necessary to know how to deal with them and, if I dare say, make the best out of them. To a large extent the older Yhwh was just like that to Israel. Not good, but someone they must take into account. The Yhwh who speaks at the end of the book of Job bluntly tells him that human life and welfare are the least of his worries. And Job's response to him is very ambiguous -- submission or rejection?

    So my question is, would you deem an "evil" god unworthy of interest? If so, how much of your answer ultimately rests on the Gnostic-Christian assumption that this god cannot be "God"?

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I would deem such an "evil" god not unworthy of interest, if he existed, but certainly unworthy of worship in the usual sense of the word. My interest would be only to the extent of my own survival, and if that required too much effort (like pretending to worship him), I would not do it.

    These questions disappear, of course, with the simple realization that there is no such Biblical God. All of the characteristics of the Old Testament God are seen in the qualities attributed by OT writers to the kings of the nations around ancient Israel, and in fact to most of the kings of Israel itself -- capriciousness, pettiness, jealousy, brooking no dissent -- all very human failings of someone elevated to absolute power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and this is seen in these kings and the God the Jews modeled after them. Why would not the king of the universe be all and then some in all the qualities of the great kings of the earth?

    AlanF

  • zack
    zack

    I am not sure that i understand your premise, but if God (the Creator of all things according to the Bible) exists, and if He created everything, I do not necessarily think that things such as microbes are of themselves proof that He is an evil deity.

    I do think that the "God" of the Bible is written about according to human perspective, for human motives, and to acheive human ends. I do not think one can attribute all the good to this God and not attribute at least some of the bad.

    Personally, I think things have worked out according to "God's" plan, we are just not privy to all of it. I would rather live BELEIVING in an ultimately benevolent Creator, than beleiving in nothing at all. We deal with moral choices all the time and at times we must do acts that are evil to accomplish a good result (for instance, sometimes humans must kill other humans in order to defend innocent life). Maybe God wants us to learn these things from experience before he makes us "like" him. If the Genesis account is allegory, perhaps then the serpent was right in the sense that we have "become" like God, or rather, that we need to become like him. I think that possessing that knowledge rather than eternal ignorance, is interesting at the very least. As for appeasement, I personally am for appeasing no one and I do not believe God is the insecure megolamaniac the Bible portrays Him to be.

    What JW's and fundies stifle is the conversation and thought that make God interesting because in their view God needs to be protected. How can a being so vast and powerful need protection from us? That is what I find perplexing. The created, in my opinion, are OWED an explanation by the Creator if the Creator is in any way a responsible individual. I do not think that is hubris, I only think it fitting of a being made in the likeness of another.

    Thanks for all your insights, by the way. I lurked here a long time and truely appreciated what you had to say.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    I've read Behe's book.

    a God who would create such nastiness is not worth anyone's time, let alone worship.

    And yet this is the natural world we live in. If fundamentalists actually took the time to study ecology, biology, and evolution they would understand the function of diseases, predators, and other such "nastiness." There is no "sin" because everything is already "perfect." Except their concept of "perfection" involves a faulty notion of "permanence." Yet nothing in the natural world is permanent. The body dies and decays because it has to. It is supposed to become food for other organisms. Those organisms become food for yet other life forms. The cycle will continue until the environment is no longer favorable for it. By then, of course, the Earth will have become a lifeless desert.

    A Designer of the system as it exists would indeed be worthy of interest if said Designer could be proved to exist and directly communicated with by anyone in some reasonable way. There is no reason to believe that this hypothetical Designer would have any system of morality or ethics, as just about anything conceivable and many things inconceivable occur every moment of existence on this planet. This hypothetical Designer doesn't appear to have a problem with any of that. The human desire for "justice," that which would ultimately correct all the perceived "nastiness" in the world, is based on an unfounded notion that the Universe owes sentient lifeforms something. There is no evidence for this. There will be no Day of Judgment. Wishing for it will not make it so.

    So, it would seem to me that the fundamentalists have unrealistic expectations for a "good" god based on faulty premises. Their faulty premises color their view of the natural world, which they ultimately refuse to accept as it is.

    Dave

  • startingover
    startingover
    There is no "sin" because everything is already "perfect." Except their concept of "perfection" involves a faulty notion of "permanence."

    Dave, never heard it worded like that before. Spot on IMO.

  • bernadette
    bernadette

    Nark

    So my question is, would you deem an "evil" god unworthy of interest?

    It would be like having a husband who has a lot of good qualities but is also abusive and prone to cruelty and someone you have to be wary of but can love when he is in good mood. When one leaves such a relationship one accepts that 'he/she' exists, but from a distance.

    If so, how much of your answer ultimately rests on the Gnostic-Christian assumption that this god cannot be "God"?

    Don't know much about the gnostic god, but if the gnostic god is understood as working towards engendering love and healing in the universe then yes my answer rests ultimately on the assumption that the former god cannot be god.

    bernadette

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Boston Legal had a great quote last night. When James Spader asks Willam Shatner why he believes in God his answer was:

    "If a believe in God and he isn't real then there is no harm done. But if I don't believe in God and he is real then I'm screwed."

    The Bible quite unashamedly says that we are to fear God. The Sovereignty issue means that God at least created the possibility of evil. If a person wants to live forever then that God is very worthy of interest (and forced worship), though is not necessarily a God that can be liked.

    It is a bit like some of my bosses. I did not like them, but I pretened to and did as they wanted so that they would pay me rather then sack me.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    If there was an evil god, I think it would depend on the punishment in store for us as to whether I would worship him.

    If (as the JWs teach) we just die and experience nothing instead of a paradise, then I'd rather that than worshipping an all powerful bully.

    If hell was real, I'd think twice and choose the lesser of the two pains.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    A god that I would be qualified to judge, would not be a God at all.

  • Clam
    Clam

    Interesting question Narkissos. Possibly a universal intelligence which man calls God contains in itself both good and evil? What seems to upset people about this is that if good and evil exist in balance then aren't we robbed of impetus towards good? So what. What need is there for anyone to try and improve themselves and the world if after all there is no real difference between right and wrong? Everyone would carry on in anyway they wished but everything would come right in the end. Free will or power of choice empowers one to accept or reject both good and evil. If a god has created this scenario then how could he blame those choosing evil? He's even offered them this choice within the framework of a 'vulnerable' mental constitution. The idea that he rewards and punishes according to personal choice is alien to me. So to answer your question "would you deem an "evil" god unworthy of interest", I'd say that a god that has created evil is more worthy of interest than one that didn't.

    Clam

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