by garybuss 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Gary,
Sheep: Group #1- Anointed. Group #2- Great Crowd. (John Chapter 10)
Concerning Matthew Chapter 25, you have actually raised an important issue in my mind, assuming that what I remember is correct. Now I'm more confused that you are. That's all I can say without looking some of this up. LOL!
Warlock
Narkissos, You wrote: "current JWs can only refer to themselves as prospective members of every group"
That's what I'm thinking. And when a Witness dies, they can't be a member of the great crowd because they died. And they aren't other sheep because those aren't judged yet. So who are they? They are just "witnesses" or door to door canvassers who are associated with a publishing company owned by a group who refer to themselves as sheep who have a history of always being wrong?
So they are witnesses without a designation. . . to what benefit? They died, the sinner died, and they will be recreated in a perfect replica body right alongside the sinner they witnessed to next door in the old world, and now in purgatory paradise they go right back to witnessing to the same person all over again.
Narkissos, What thoughts did you have on bennyk's post?
Warlock, Look it up and write it up. Please! I want to see what you're thinking.
garrybus-
Wait on Jehovah. He'll clarify matters in due time. No need for speculation. LOL
Just kidding, of course.
Baaaa! Who gives a sheep?
Naaa, neverendingjourney, There's a fly in the jelly jar! We're gonna git him out. There's a BIG hole in Watch Tower teachings. Something's in the works. If they let this mess go, they're gonna drift with no wind in their sails.
Notice the Governing Body members out stirring up dust? They are looking proactive after a few years of being reactive. I've seen notes on three different Governing Body member talks just recently. These guys are out working like a Vegas hooker.
Tell us what you really think neverendingjourney, we want to know.
Tell us what you really think neverendingjourney , we want to know.
I clearly indicated that I was joking. I thought there'd be some humor in posting a typical JW answer to this type of question. Maybe you didn't find my joke very funny
Your post poses an interesting question, but I have no answer for you because there is no logic to this teaching. JW theology doesn't make sense in general.
Have you considerd this
This sheep pen = Jews
Other sheep= Gentiles
“Thanks bennyk, So as the Watch Tower teaching stands, the separation of the sheep and the goats that occurs after the Great Tribulation, could occur AFTER the end of the 1,000 year judgment period. That would mean the goats would live with the sheep applicants for one thousand years. Am I following you?”
Not Quite. Russell taught that the Separation of the Sheep and Goats was to occur for most humans at the End of the Millennium. (Russell also taught that the truly recalcitrant sinner could be declared a Goat and be cut off everlastingly even during the Millennium.) In contrast, The Society began teaching in the 15. Oct. 1995 Watchtower that the Separation takes place in the “near future” and “soon” after the beginning of the Great Tribulation -- thus apparently BEFORE and/or during Armageddon. Note the following:
*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins….
The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place….
As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.
(I think the above statements preclude this Judgment being placed more than one thousand years in the future.)
So, if I understand the Society correctly and consistently…
1) The “Other Sheep” are anyone “having the prospect of life on earth” (*** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions from Readers) This class includes all non-anointed Christians (they have the prospect even now) as well as anyone who will be resurrected. This class is not yet finally judged.
2) The Sheep of Matthew Chapter 25 are those who are “separated … to everlasting life.” (w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)
The problem which the Society has not addressed is that this would mean that the “Great Crowd” of “Other Sheep” (by virtue of their not being “Goats”) are “judicially separated in a final sense to life” in the “near future” (again, w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)
– emphatically NOT at the End of the Thousand Years (Rev. 20:5) Current teachings are clearly not consistent.
Just went through the Watchtower 10/15 95 (been a long time since I have underlined a WT):
3 Jesus foretold striking developments to come "immediately after" the outbreak of great tribulation(actually after the tribulation, by Mark and Matthew), developments we await. He said that then "the sign of the Son of man" would appear. This will profoundly affect "all the tribes of the earth" who will "see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." The Son of man will be accompanied by "his angels." (Matthew 24:21, 29-31) What of the parable of the sheep and the goats? Modern Bibles put it in chapter 25, but it is part of Jesus’ reply, giving further details about his coming in glory and focusing on his judging of "all the nations."—Matthew 25:32.(...)
9 The parable does not apply during the Millennium, for the anointed will not then be humans suffering hunger, thirst, sickness, or imprisonment. Many of them, though, have experienced such during the conclusion of this system of things. Ever since Satan was cast down to earth, he has made the remnant a special object of his fury, bringing on them ridicule, torture, and death. (I guess last time such things actually happened to JW "anointed" was during WWII; unfortunately most prospective "other sheep" that were around are already dead and shouldn't be resurrected before the end of the great tribulation to be the "sheep vs. goats") —Revelation 12:17.
10
Is Jesus saying that everyone doing a small kindness to one of his brothers, such as offering a piece of bread or a glass of water, qualifies as one of these sheep? Granted, rendering such kindnesses may reflect human kindness, but really, it seems that much more is involved with the sheep of this parable. Jesus was hardly referring, for example, to atheists or clergymen who happen to do a kind act to one of his brothers (no comment).On the contrary,Jesus twice called the sheep "righteous ones." (Matthew 25:37, 46) So the sheep must be ones who over a period of time have come to the aid of—actively supporting—Christ’s brothers and have exercised faith to the extent of receiving a righteous standing before God.11
Over the centuries, many such as Abraham have enjoyed a righteous standing. (James 2:21-23) Noah, Abraham, and other faithful ones count among the "other sheep" who will inherit life in Paradise under God’s Kingdom. In recent times millions more have taken up true worship as other sheep (!) and have become "one flock" with the anointed. (John 10:16; Revelation 7:9) These with earthly hopes recognize Jesus’ brothers as ambassadors of the Kingdom and have therefore aided them—literally and spiritually. Jesus counts as done to him what the other sheep do for his brothers on earth.Such ones who are alive when he comes to judge the nations(and hence would have never had any opportunity to help an "anointed" in prison, for instance -- unless new developments occur in the future, lol)will be judged as sheep.12
If the other sheep are now preaching the good news with the anointed and aiding them, why would they ask: "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink?" (Matthew 25:37) There could be various reasons (but we won't tell which ones, except) This is a parable. By means of it, Jesus shows his deep concern for his spiritual brothers; he feels with them, suffers with them. Jesus had earlier said: "He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth." (Matthew 10:40) In this illustration, Jesus extends the principle, showing that what is done (good or bad) to his brothers reaches even into heaven; it is as if it is done to him in heaven. Also, Jesus here emphasizes Jehovah’s standard for judging, making it clear that God’s judgment, whether favorable or condemnatory, is valid and just. The goats cannot offer the excuse, ‘Well, if only we had seen you directly.’13
Once we appreciate when it is that the judgment shown in this parable is rendered, we get a clearer view of who the goats are. The fulfillment is when "the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then allthetribesoftheearth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming . . . with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29, 30) Survivors of the tribulation on Babylon the Great who have treated the King’s brothers despitefully may now desperately address the Judge as "Lord," hoping to save their lives.—Matthew 7:22, 23; compare Revelation 6:15-17.14
However, Jesus’ judgment will not be based on desperate claims from former churchgoers, atheists, or others. (2 Thessalonians 1:8) Instead, the judge will review the heart condition and past actions of people toward even "one of these least ones [of his brothers]." Admittedly, the number of anointed Christians left on earth is declining. However, as long as the anointed, making up "the faithful and discreet slave," continue to provide spiritual food and direction, prospective sheep (aha) have an opportunity to do good to the slave class, just as the ‘great crowd out of all nations and tribes and peoples’ have done. (note that the great crowd is here described as an already existing group, contrary to the regular WT teaching).—Revelation 7:9, 14. 15 How have Christ’s brothers and the millions of other sheep (!) united with them as one flock been treated? Many people may not personally have attacked Christ’s representatives, but neither have they treated his people lovingly. Preferring the wicked world, goatlike ones reject the Kingdom message, whether hearing it directly or indirectly. (1 John 2:15-17) Of course, in the final analysis, Jesus is the one who is appointed to render judgment. It is not for us to determine who are sheep and who are goats.—Mark 2:8; Luke 5:22; John 2:24, 25; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Corinthians 4:5. WhatFutureforEachGroup? 16 Jesus gave his judgment of the sheep: "Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world." What a warm invitation—"Come"! To what? To everlasting life, as he expressed in summation: "The righteous [will enter] into everlasting life."—Matthew 25:34, 46. 17 In the parable of the talents, Jesus showed what is required of those who will rule with him in heaven, but in this parable he shows what is expected of the Kingdom’s subjects. (Matthew 25:14-23) Pointedly, because of their undivided support of Jesus’ brothers, the sheep inherit a place in the earthly realm of his Kingdom. They will enjoy life on a paradise earth—a prospect that God prepared for them "from the founding of the world" of redeemable humans. (another unwarranted qualification). —Luke 11:50, 51. 18 What a contrast is the judgment executed on the goats! "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’"—Matthew 25:41-45. 19 Bible students know that this cannot mean that immortal souls of goatlike ones will suffer in an eternal fire. No, for humans are souls; they do not possess immortal souls. (Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Ezekiel 18:4) By sentencing the goats to "everlasting fire," the Judge means destruction devoid of a future hope, which will also be the permanent end for the Devil and his demons. (Revelation 20:10, 14) Hence, Jehovah’s Judge sets out opposites. He tells the sheep, "Come"; the goats, "Be on your way from me." The sheep will inherit "everlasting life." The goats will receive "everlasting cutting-off."—Matthew 25:46. WhatDoesItMeanforUs? 20 The four apostles who heard Jesus’ reply about the sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system had much to consider. They would need to keep awake and on the watch. (Matthew 24:42) They would also need to do the witnessing work mentioned at Mark 13:10. Jehovah’s Witnesses are energetically engaged in that work today. 21 What, though, does this fresh understanding of the parable of the sheep and the goats mean to us? Well, people are already taking sides. Some are on ‘the broad road leading off into destruction,’ while others try to stay on ‘the cramped road leading off into life.’ (Matthew 7:13, 14) But the time when Jesus will pronounce final judgment on the sheep and the goats depicted in the parable is yet ahead.When the Son of man comes in the role of Judge, he will determine that many true Christians—actually "a great crowd" of dedicated sheep—will qualify to pass through the final part of "the great tribulation" into the new world. That prospect should now be a source of joy. (Revelation 7:9, 14) On the other hand, vast numbers out of "all the nations" will have proved themselves to be like stubborn goats. They "will depart into everlasting cutting-off." What a relief for the earth! (gag) 22 While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people. (Matthew 10:32-39) Paul wrote: "For ‘everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.’ However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?" (Romans 10:13, 14) Our public ministry is reaching people in over 230 lands with the name of God and his message of salvation. The anointed brothers of Christ are still spearheading this work. Some five million of the other sheep have now joined them. And people around the globe are responding to the message proclaimed by Jesus’ brothers. 23 Many are exposed to our message as we preach from house to house or informally. Others may learn of Jehovah’s Witnesses and what we represent in ways unknown to us. When judgment time arrives, to what extent will Jesus consider community responsibility and family merit? We cannot say, and it is pointless to speculate. (Compare 1 Corinthians 7:14.) Many now turn a deaf ear, ridicule, or share in outright persecution of God’s people. Hence, this is a crucial time; such ones may be developing into those whom Jesus will judge as goats.—Matthew 10:22; John 15:20; 16:2, 3; Romans 2:5, 6. 24 Happily, though, many respond favorably, study God’s Word, and become Witnesses of Jehovah. Some who at present seem goatlike may change and become like sheep. The point is that those responding and actively supporting the remnant of Christ’s brothers are thereby now giving evidence that will provide a basis for them to be placed on Jesus’ right hand when, in the near future, he sits down on his throne to render judgment. These are being and will continue to be blessed. Thus, this parable should spur us on to more zealous activity in the Christian ministry. Before it is too late, we want to do all we can to proclaim the good news of the Kingdom and in that way give others the opportunity to respond. Then it is up to Jesus to render judgment, condemnatory or favorable.—Matthew 25:46.
