Predestination?

by Zico 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Doug.

    On the issue of election/predestination JWs have very little to do with Calvinism (vs. Armianianism, cf. my former post: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/134714/2400774/post.ashx#2400774).

    What may sound Calvinistic to the mildly attentive onlooker is their doctrine of the 144,000 as a "chosen few". But this has nothing to do with Calvinism actually.

    Calvinism posits a twofold option: salvation / perdition. Those (the individuals) who are ultimately saved are chosen from eternity.

    JWism has a threefold option: salvation 1 (144,000) / salvation 2 ("other sheep") / destruction. Both salvations are offered, # 1 to some and # 2 to all others, and it is up to the "free will" of each individual to accept either offer and persevere to the end. Whoever doesn't gets into the "destroyed" category.

    In the JW system, the 144,000 are only "chosen" in the sense that God offersthem(rather than others) salvation # 1 rather than salvation # 2 (not so much of an individual choice for most of them, since salvation # 1 is supposed to be the only one available for any "true Christian" between Pentecost and 1935); none of the individuals who make up the group is predestined. Only the group is, collectively (its "standard," as you say, including its literal number, until next "new light" maybe).

    So on this issue JWs are really the opposite side of the spectrum from Calvinism. "Double Arminianism" (or, better, "double Pelagianism") would be more correct.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Gumby,

    Btw.....who the heck is Dawn? It ain't Sirona is it?

    Yes, my real name is Dawn. Sirona

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    This is on response to the question regarding "fitted for restriction" as noted by DDog.

    The following comes from Appendix C "The Significance of Romans 9-11" in "Life in the Son", by Robert Shank. I can provide the whole chapter, which runs to 6 pages, if required.

    [Romans 9: 14-31] God is sovereign and therefore has the right to do as He pleases with individuals and nations. He is free to bestow favors on some, and to deny them to others, without becoming answerable to any creature. This absolute sovereignty extends to Isaac and Ishmael (vv. 7-9), to Jacob and Esau (vv. 10-13), to Moses (vv. 15,16), to Pharaoh (v. 17), to all other individual men (vv. 18-24), and, collectively, to Israel and the Gentiles (vv. 25-31). God, as sovereign, has an absolute right to make of the common lump of humanity some vessels to honor, and others to dishonor; some for wrath and destruction, and others for mercy and glory. He has an absolute right to say of Israel, "not my people." It is not for men to call God into question. (To do so is not only presumptious; it is positively dangerous, since such an attitude is incompatible with faith. Hence the sharpness and vigor of Paul's reply to presumed objectors.)

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Doug

    Thanks. That sums up my belief, very well. My point in asking LT about the babies was in regard to Jacob and Esau. We read in verse 11

    Romans 9:11

    for the childrennot yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of the One calling,

    If a baby dies, he hasn't made any choices, so his eternal destiny is decided for him. Why should we be any different?

    Also, thanks for the PM. I've never been a JW, but studied with them for 4 years.

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