The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture (page 3)

Phizzy

I wish this guy would apply his expertise to the JW "religion" in a similar lecture/video, I would forward it to every JW I know.

Cold Steel

Why would God or Maroni need these plates back? Why didn't they leave them if God wanted believers?

Actually those aren't bad questions. But first, if Smith was telling the truth he was not a fraudster, right? So why did the angel take the plates back? First, about two-thirds of the plates were sealed (see Isaiah 29:11-14; 18-21) and Smith wasn't permitted to translate them or even look at them. Also, the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never. (See reply to Cofty below.) Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that. And do you believe he would have been able to keep them? How about the man upon whose land Smith found them? Wouldn't he have claimed a right to them? “After all, ol' Joe Smith found them on my land! He only came up with that 'translation' after he found them on my property!“ The stone box was still intact on the hill as well as the large rock covering it. Some of the early saints reported seeing them for some time and said they were there for all to see. But of course anyone could have constructed such and no one would have been the wiser.

Finally, if we had the plates today for all to see, would you become a Latter-day Saint? Something tells me you would simply find another objection.

Cofty: I thought the video was fascinating and informative. Your cult is crazier than the Watchtower.

So what you're saying is, “I care not what the truth is, I choose to believe it anyway!“ Joseph Smith said, “It is true [that men ] have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see.“ He also said that anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking. “And thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it,“ he said, “you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.“ Thus, any person can attain the visions and power that Joseph Smith, Moses or any prophet who ever lived. “God hath not revealed anything to [me], but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them....“

Believe what you will, then; you are only limiting yourself.

cofty

Cold Steel - Have you the slightest clue how the world outside of Utah views your cult?

the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never... Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that.

Can't you see your contradiction?

1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away

2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.

Just like apologists for any fraudulent cult you tie yourself in knots with your intellectual dishonesty.

cofty

anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking

Faith is mind-rot.

It is the dishonest device that leads gullible people to believe lies.

Embrace an evidence-based worldview and stop the exhausting game of lying for god.

Cold Steel

This is why I get pissed with cult members who come here trying to recruit ExJWs to a new kind of crazy.

Well let's get something straight. I didn't start this message thread. I'm only responding to a staggering display of ignorance on the part of a hit and run sophomoric fellow who has, unfortunately learned to write before learning to think. I don't know, but I suspect he's in high school, has read a few books and thinks he has figured out just how the Universe is run. And BTW, he's also an atheist, which certainly qualifies as a religion. So some of us are not atheists, despite the wont of many of them that this all should be a board dedicated to ex-JWs who are now militant atheists. But many still want to be Christians and are bullied by outspoken critics of all religion.

If people here want to slam Mormonism, I believe I have the right to respond. And while I'm not here recruiting, I do encourage people not to reject Christianity, but to believe in Christ and continue searching.

cofty

many still want to be Christians and are bullied by outspoken critics of all religion

Please explain how the presentation of facts, evidence and reason is equivalent to bullying.

As a rational person I thrive on challenges to my worldview. I don't want to be wrong any longer than necessary. The more facts somebody can offer me to correct my beliefs the better. I will love you for it.

On the other hand people who base their beliefs on faith get angry and make childish personal attacks when they are confronted by evidence. Your previous post is a classic example. Thanks.

cofty

Coldsteel - Just before your rant, I was asking you about your contradiction. You made the following two points.

1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away.

2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.

Which is it?

dropoffyourkeylee

Just listened to the entire thing. A bit on the sensational side, but interesting.

It's a shame that he doesn't bring out the JW roots in the 'burned over' district of upstate NY, though he does mention the SDA connection.

Cold Steel

Please explain how the presentation of facts, evidence and reason is equivalent to bullying.

Very well. You post a virulent anti-Mormon video without first checking out its validity. Then, when caught, you say you don't care, you still like it. The facts were wrong, the evidence lacking and the reasoning was comedic. Bottom line, mate, it's if we can't trust you to check out a video or to apologize when confronted with the facts, how can we trust you to tell us the truth about atheism, Darwinism or anything else? I've never posted anything I was unsure of and then not apologized when wrong. But as an atheist, you lack a moral dimension about such things because you don't see the harm in it. It doesn't matter to you because it's a religion, and it deserves to be ridiculed. Last time we discussed atheism, I brought up this rationalization problem and shifting ethics that change to accommodate society. It shifts because it's not grounded in a firm and moral foundation.

cofty

Then, when caught, you say you don't care, you still like it. The facts were wrong, the evidence lacking and the reasoning was comedic.

I disagree. I believe every single fact in the video was spot on.

I am trying to discuss the facts by starting with the gold plates but you are still ignoring my questions. For the third time...

You made the following two points.

1. God didn't leave the plates because he doesn't like giving anybody proof. Therefore he took the plates away.

2. If we still had the plates it would not have been proof of anything.

Which is it?

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

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