I'll ask him when I see him.
Warlock
Where did JesusGet this Idea From?
by gumby 34 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
Ross:
Perhaps, indeed, one of the deepest theological issues ever is whether the principle of difference (and potential antagonism) is to be set within the "divine" or against it.
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mouthy
So Kent.....can I assume you won't be attending the summer ASSembly this year?
ROTFL!!!!!! Mary you cut me up....
By the way Mary your phamplet written inviting folks to the memorial is in this months "TIDBITS" That goes all over the world. Good advertising girl -send your time into Bethel you really earned it -
gumby
Well well, I thought this thread had died or I would have responded sooner. Thanks everyone for your input.....minus Skally.
Narkster brought out a good point but nobody commented on it. He said,
In the present case, "hate your enemies" can be seen as an adequate summary of a number of scriptural texts, e.g. Deuteronomy 7:2; 23:7; 30:7; Psalms 5:5; 26:5; 31:7; 119:113ff; 139.19ff; 2 Chronicles 19:2.
Anyone care to comment on the scriptures that go along with what the pharisses taught regarding hating your enimies according to the old law?
Gumby
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Mary
In the present case, "hate your enemies" can be seen as an adequate summary of a number of scriptural texts, e.g. Deuteronomy 7:2; 23:7; 30:7; Psalms 5:5; 26:5; 31:7; 119:113ff; 139.19ff; 2 Chronicles 19:2.
Anyone care to comment on the scriptures that go along with what the pharisses taught regarding hating your enimies according to the old law?
I'll give it a shot, but I'm no scholar:
Ok, Deut 7:2 says:"..and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.." The reason the Israelites were instructed to utterly destroy the Canaanites appears to be because of their false religion:"But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images, and burn their carved images with fire." Although this might be stretching it, nowhere does it in these verses that they had to "hate their enemy" they were to conquor.
The next scripture is interesting. After describing who cannot enter into the "assembly of the Lord", the Israelites are specifically told not to "abhor an Egyptian" because they had lived amongst them while enslaved in Egypt. You'd think that if the Israelites were to hate anyone, it would be their former task masters.
Deut 23:1-7 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation. 4 For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim [ b ] to pronounce a curse on you. 5 However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6 Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live. 7 Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. 8 The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.
The Book of Psalms is a collection of prayers, poems, and hymns that focus the worshiper's thoughts on God in praise and worship, and cannot be taken at face value or literally in alot of cases. Psalms 26:5 is a 'psalm of David' yet it says:
" Vindicate me, O LORD, for I have led a blameless life; I have trusted in the LORD without wavering."
As we all know, David was guilty of adultery, conspiracy to commit murder, murder and a cover up afterwards. Hardly a 'blameless life' that this verse attributes to him. Therefore, it's kind of hard to take the: "...I abhor the assembly of evildoers and refuse to sit with the wicked..." as a commandment coming from God----I would assume it is the viewpoint of whoever it was that wrote it. Then over the centuries, the Pharisees did what the WTS does: they took things out of context, gave it a different twist so it would go far beyond it's original intent to suit their own purposes. The Oral Law became just as important to them as the Written Law, so it wouldn't have been very difficult for them to perhaps come up with an unwritten law such as "hate your enemy".
Actually, I think either Leolaia or Narkissos would be better able to answer this than me.
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restrangled
Gumby,
Don't have an answer, but wanted to say nice to see you on the Board.
r.
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Narkissos
I should have given the texts instead of just the references (which were unfortunately taken from a French list of mine, whence a difference in verse number sometimes):
Dt 7:2 when the LORD your God gives them over to you and you defeat them, then you must utterly destroy them. Make no covenant with them and show them no mercy.
Dt 23:6;You shall never promote their welfare or their prosperity as long as you live.
(The Edomite and Egyptian cases in [English] v. 7 are clearly marked as exceptions to the rule, which may also to be understood from the political situation of the text: at several stages in history, both pre- and post-exilic, Judea did entertain a good relationship with Egypt and Edom. Under the Egyptian-friendly Hasmoneans, "Idumea," still linked to older Edom in spite of a geographical difference, was even integrated to the Jewish kingdom.)
Deuteronomy 30:7: The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on the adversaries who took advantage of you.
This of course is presented as Yhwh's action but it sets a pattern for his worshipers. (This also applies to a number of verses stating Yhwh's hate of his enemies, which I will not mention further.)
In several Psalms, the Psalmist's hate of Yhwh's enemies is clearly expressed as a testimony of his loyalty to Yhwh -- something which is implicitly understood as agreeable to Yhwh. Without this assumption there is simply no point for the statement of hate.
26:4ff: For your steadfast love is before my eyes,
and I walk in faithfulness to you.
I do not sit with the worthless,
nor do I consort with hypocrites;
I hate the company of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked.
I wash my hands in innocence,
and go around your altar, O LORD,119:113: I hate the double-minded, but I love your law.
139:19f: O that you would kill the wicked, O God,
and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me--
those who speak of you maliciously,
and lift themselves up against you for evil!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my thoughts.2 Chronicles 19:1f: Jehu son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the LORD."
The treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel 15 (where Saul is punished for not killing everybody) or the "curse blessing" on Babylon in Psalm 137:8f (Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us! Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!) also come to mind.
I don't mean that this is a consistent OT stance (although probably the predominant one). As far as general hate of Gentiles is concerned, for instance, there are fine counter stories to Deuteronomistic exclusivism in the Patriarchal narratives in Genesis, Ruth (compare the treatment of Moabites in Deuteronomy 23) or Jonah. Proverbs also advise being nice to personal enemies (although with the hindthought that this will result in their being punished harder, cf. 24:17f; 25:21f). My point was, only, that there is ample substance in the Hebrew Bible to back up the Matthean summarising statement "love your neighbour (Leviticus 19) and hate your enemy".
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Mary
Narkissos said: Proverbs also advise being nice to personal enemies (although with the hindthought that this will result in their being punished harder, cf. 24:17f; 25:21f). My point was, only, that there is ample substance in the Hebrew Bible to back up the Matthean summarising statement "love your neighbour (Leviticus 19) and hate your enemy".
Nice summary Narkissos.....one question I have regarding this is: Do you think Jesus was talking about 'loving your enemies' as referring to someone's personal enemies (as mentioned in Proverbs), or enemies of the Faith? As liberal as He was, I can't see that he was endorsing the ideas that his followers should love, say, the Pharisees. Your thoughts?
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gumby
Mary and Narkmeister....nice work
It seems the obvious is that the hatred mentioned in some of these verses was in the sense of hating the actions of gods enemies moreso than hating the individual. It also is a means to explain ones loyalty to YHWH.
It seems hard to imagine that the Israelite armies who destroyed the people of Caanan didn't have hearts full of hate when they slew these ones by the thousands. Modern day soldiers are trained to hate the enemy so that killing them becomes an easier task.
In spite of Jesus's council to love ones enemies the Watchtower chooses to use the Old Testament examples to apply their egenda towards those opposing their beliefs as noted below:
Watchtower 1961 July 15 p.420 A Time and Place for Everything
Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, thenin order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked. Indicating that Jesus did not mean for us to love the hardened enemies of Jehovah, David expressed this God-approved attitude: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."-Matt. 5:44; Amos 5:15; Ps. 139:21, 22.
Watchtower 1980 June 15 p.8 What It Takes to Keep Separate from the World
Without a doubt, our appreciating just how wicked and corrupt Satan's world is will help us to keep separate from the world. Such appreciation will make it easy for us to obey the command found at Psalm 97:10: "O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad." No matter how pleasant, how enticing, wicked things are to the fallen flesh, we must abhor them, even as the apostle commands. (Rom. 12:9) More than that, we want to hate those who willfully show themselves haters of Jehovah, haters of what is good.
Gumby
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Terry
http://origin.org/ucs/ws/theme144.cfm
LOVE YOUR ENEMY
The prescription to love your enemy and to requite evil with good is sometimes thought of as an impractical and perfectionist ethic, able to be practiced only by a few exceptional souls. But, in fact, this doctrine is widely taught in all religions as a fundamental principle for pursuing relationships with others. The person who insists upon vengeance or retribution is not necessarily committing a crime, but neither will his act of revenge be helpful to spiritual advancement. Revenge, which requites evil with evil, only multiplies evil in the world, while love, by in which one strives to overcome evil with good, spreads goodness in the world.
True love is unconditional and impartial--thus the metaphor of the sun that shines down on all life. It is tested and proven by encounters with those who are difficult to love. Where true love prevails, there no enemies are found.
The concluding passages dispute the prescription to love your enemy when it apparently contravenes the principles of justice and right. Sometimes the best way to love an evil person is to make him face justice, or to hinder him from doing wrong. Nevertheless, these corrective actions should be done with a loving heart and with the other person's welfare uppermost in mind.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!" In those who harbor such thoughts hatred is not appeased.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me!" In those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred is appeased.
Hatreds never cease through hatred in this world; through love alone they cease. This is an eternal law.
1.Buddhism. Dhammapada 3-5
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Dhammapada 3-5: Cf. Jerusalem Talmud, Nedarim 9.4, p. 850.
- - - - - - - - - - - -You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
2.Christianity. Matthew 5.43-48
My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.
3.Jainism. Vitaragastava 14.5
Of the adage, Only a good man knows how to like people, knows how to dislike them, Confucius said, "He whose heart is in the smallest degree set upon Goodness will dislike no one."
4.Confucianism. Analects 4.3-4
I should be like the sun, shining universally on all without seeking thanks or reward, able to take care of all sentient beings even if they are bad, never giving up on my vows on this account, not abandoning all sentient beings because one sentient being is evil.
5.Buddhism. Garland Sutra 23
What kind of love is this that to another can shift? Says Nanak, True lovers are those who are forever absorbed in the Beloved. Whoever discriminates between treatment held good or bad, Is not a true lover--he rather is caught in calculations.
6.Sikhism. Adi Granth, Asa-ki-Var, M.2, p. 474
The sage has no fixed [personal] ideas.
He regards the people's ideas as his own.
I treat those who are good with goodness,
And I also treat those who are not good with goodness.
Thus goodness is attained.I am honest with those who are honest,
And I am also honest with those who are dishonest.
Thus honesty is attained.7.Taoism. Tao Te Ching 49
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Matthew 5.43-48: Cf. 1 John 4.18-20, p. 209; also Genesis 32:3-20, pp. 556-57, on Jacob's love for Esau. Cf. Sun Myung Moon, 10-20-73, pp. 850f. Asa-ki-Var, M.2: Cf. Wadhans, M.1, p. 210; Slok, Farid, p. 365. Garland Sutra 23: Cf. Mahaparinirvana Sutra 15.20, pp. 211f.; Perfection of Wisdom in Eight Thousand Lines 321-22, p. 829; Garland Sutra 23, p. 837; Sikshasamuccaya 280-81, p. 837; Digha Nikaya xiii.77, p. 211; Metta Sutta, p. 209.
- - - - - - - - - - - -It may be that God will ordain love between you and those whom you hold as enemies. For God has power over all things; and God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
8.Islam. Qur'an 60.7
Aid an enemy before you aid a friend, to subdue hatred.
9.Judaism. Tosefta, Baba Metzia 2.26
Do good to him who has done you an injury.
10.Taoism. Tao Te Ching 63
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
11.Christianity. Romans 12.21
God said, "Resemble Me; just as I repay good for evil so do you also repay good for evil."
12.Judaism. Exodus Rabbah 26.2
Conquer anger by love. Conquer evil by good. Conquer the stingy by giving. Conquer the liar by truth.
13.Buddhism. Dhammapada 223
Man should subvert anger by forgiveness, subdue pride by modesty, overcome hypocrisy with simplicity, and greed by contentment.
14.Jainism. Samanasuttam 136
May generosity triumph over niggardliness,
May love triumph over contempt,
May the true-spoken word triumph over the false-spoken word,
May truth triumph over falsehood.15.Zoroastrianism. Yasna 60.5
The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo!, he between whom and you there was enmity shall become as though he were a bosom friend.
But none is granted it save those who are steadfast, and none is granted it save a person of great good fortune.
16.Islam. Qur'an 41.34-35
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Dhammapada 223: Cf. James 1.20, p. 793; Genesis 32.3-20, pp. 556f.
- - - - - - - - - - - -A superior being does not render evil for evil; this is a maxim one should observe; the ornament of virtuous persons is their conduct. One should never harm the wicked or the good or even criminals meriting death. A noble soul will ever exercise compassion even towards those who enjoy injuring others or those of cruel deeds when they are actually committing them--for who is without fault?
17.Hinduism. Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda 115
The reason why God does not punish even though He may see an enemy and have the urge to kill him and get revenge, is that He is thinking of the enemy's parents, wife and children who all love. Knowing all too well their unparalleled love toward that person, God cannot strike him with His iron rod. When you really understand such a heart of God, could you take revenge on your enemy? When you know all these things, you would even go and help that person. In this manner one comes closer to the Great Way of heavenly Principle, that Great Way which tries to embrace everything centering on love. When this happens earth will shake and induce even God to shed tears. "You truly resemble me. How happy I am!" He will ex- claim. God always looks at things in that perspective. This is how we should understand the teaching to love one's enemy. The source of such a power to love your enemy is neither knowledge, nor money, nor earthly power. It is only true love.
18.Unification Church. Sun Myung Moon, 3-30-90
Someone said, "What do you say concerning the principle that injury should be recompensed with kindness?" The Master said, "With what will you then recompense kindness? Recompense injury with justice, and recompense kindness with kindness."
19.Confucianism. Analects 14.36
According to Anas ibn Malik, the Prophet said, "Help your brother whether he is oppressor or oppressed."
According to Anas, after the Messenger of God said, "Help your brother whether he is oppressor or oppressed," Anas replied to him, "O Messenger of God, a man who is oppressed I am ready to help, but how does one help an oppressor?" "By hindering him doing wrong," he said.
20.Islam. Hadith of Bukhari
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Ramayana: Cf. Yajur Veda 36.18, p. 210. Sun Myung Moon, 3-30-90: See Sun Myung Moon, 10-20-73, pp. 850f. Analects 14.36: This and the following passage dispute the notion that to love your enemy always means to do kindness, if that would not uphold justice. Confucius is here disputing the proverb from the Tao Te Ching 63, quoted above. Yet Confucius also praises the ideal of universal benevolence in Analects 4.3-4, above. Apparently, even though a man may like an evildoer and want to help him, sometimes doing him a kindness will not be helpful; particularly if that 'kindness' only encourages him to do more evil. Tougher measures may be appropriate, but these, too, should be motivated by genuine love--by a parental concern for the wrongdoer's welfare. See also Yogachara Bhumi Shastra, p. 416; Sanhedrin 72a, p. 415. Hadith of Bukhari: See the previous note.
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