Who is "us" Genesis 1:26

by BFD 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    So originally the beleif was polytheisim? Interesting. I wonder why it changed.

    One important milestone on the way from polytheism to monotheism -- at this stage, more exactly henotheism or monolatry: there are many gods but you must worship but one -- is the "Deuteronomistic" reform of Josiah's time (late 7th century BC, 2 Kings 22--23). The issue then was political: uniting the kingdom in the worship of one god through one priesthood at the one approved royal sanctuary in Jerusalem.

    The next step into monotheism proper (there is only one God) is particularly visible in Deutero-Isaiah (Is. 40--55) in the next century. It came, in part, from the need to make sense of Judah's defeat to the neo-Babylonian empire, not as the victory of Marduk over Yhwh, but as the mysterious will of Yhwh himself controlling all powers of history. The other "gods" did not really exist.

    But practical monotheism did not remain "pure," with the rise of angelology and demonology -- a Yhwh vs. Satan dualism took the place of "Yhwh causing both good and bad" (cf. Isaiah 45:7).

    Interestingly one of the best summaries of the earliest polytheism was conserved in Deuteronomy 32:8f, thanks to two contradictory monotheistic "corrections" in the proto-Masoretic text and the Septuagint which let us appreciate the original text... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66342/1.ashx

    did you notice in the NWT Doubting Thomas asked to see the holes of the nailS in Jesus' hands? Nails plural not singular as would be the case if he died on the cross.

    I suppose you mean "if he died on the stake".

  • BFD
    BFD

    Thanks, Narkissos. I printed out the thread that you posted. I am going to go to bed now and read it, I'm beat. I will check back here tomorrow to see if I get any more replies.

    Leolaia, I sent you a pm.

    MJ, ("who is with me") is not in my bible? Isaiah 44:24

    Whitedove (love the name) thanks for your input. I knew what you meant btw.

    BFD

    ps I love JWD!

  • BFD
    BFD

    One more thing...

    Startingover, I set a goal to read the entire Bible and I intend to finish it. However, next on my list is most likely going to be "Athiest's Book of Bible Stories". It just sounds too logical to resist. Thanks!

    BFD

  • startingover
    startingover

    BFD,

    More power to ya! Keep us posted.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    BFD, hi, how are you?

    You said:

    A few weeks ago I started a thread explaining that I wanted to read the entire bible for the first time. I had been reading the KJV and I read Revelation, John I, II, II and then I read John, Matthew, Mark, Luke using the KJV in that order at someone's suggestion here. I further took the suggestion of the poster and purchased an NIV Bible. Although I have many quetions regarding the NT I just wanted to read it once then seek answers to my questions after reading it again with the NIV.

    So, now I have started reading the NIV from Genesis. Maybe my reading comprehension skills are not what they should be. But my question(s) are:

    I am glad you got an NIV. It is definitely easier to read than a KJV.

    You said:

    Who is the "us" and "our" referred to in Gen 1:26? I thought God created everything by Himself. (Dare I say Trinity? again)

    The Bible, from Genesis through Revelation, makes it clear that God created all things, that only God Almighty is the Creator.

    Isaiah 44:24 says that Jehovah created all things alone, all by Himself. Yet, John 1:3 says that "in the beginning" the Word was with God, and that every single thing has been created through the Word (Jesus Christ), and Colossians 1:16 says that Jesus Christ created all things for Himself, and that Jesus existed before anything was ever created.

    Proverbs chapter 8 talks about "Wisdom" personified. It says that God created all things through His "Wisdom" which was also His "Master Worker." Most Christian commentaries and scholars (at least from what I have read), say that "Wisdom" is the same as "the Word" from John 1:1 -- it is the Pre-Human Jesus Christ.

    Then, we come to Genesis 1:26-27. It is important to read verses 26 and 27:

    Genesis 1:26-27 (English Standard Version): Then God said, "Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    Genesis 1:26-27 is showing us that there is more than one Person who is Jehovah God, and that They communicate together and created together. This is in perfect harmony with John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-18, and Hebrews 1:2-3, 1:10, and John 17:5.

    Thus, the Bible teaches that The Father is Jehovah the Creator and The Son is also Jehovah the Creator. The Father created all things through His Son.

    Also, there are a few other times in the Bible where God speaks of Himself as "Us":

    Genesis 3:22 (ESV): Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"

    Genesis 11:7 (ESV): Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech."

    Isaiah 6:8 (ESV): And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."

    BFD said:

    Also, Gen 4:13 Cain tells God his punishment is more than he can bear because "whoever finds me will kill me". Who else was on the earth and how did they get there?

    The Bible does not say how old Cain and Abel were when this happened. They could have been anywhere from 15, 20, 50, or 100 years old. (they had to be younger than 130 though according to other Scriptures).

    God had commanded Adam and Eve to have many, many children:

    Genesis 1:27-28 (ESV): So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

    The Bible says that Adam had other sons and daughters besides Cain, Abel, and Seth:

    Genesis 5:4 (ESV): The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.

    The Bible also says that Adam was 130 years old when he became father to Seth. It is highly likely that Adam and Eve had many children during those 130 years prior to Seth's birth, including daughters. (Genesis 5:3-4)

    Therefore, Cain took his wife from among his sisters (or, depending how old Cain was, he could have even married a niece).

    Cain could have been worried about his brothers or sisters (or even Adam and Eve) killing him because he murdered Abel. He also could have been worried about people in the future (after all, the Bible says that people in Adam and Eve's day lived around 800 to 900 years old).

    BFD said:

    I could barely get through the first 26 chapters because I have a multitude of questions. I think I am going to have to look for a bible study group near me in order to get through this. But in the meantime can anyone answer these first two questions?

    I hope my answers helped you. I highly recommend the "Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translation," or the NIV Study Bible, which both provide explanatory notes at the bottom of each page of the Bible, explaining what difficult verses mean.

    Also, I recommend searching Google for the following Bible Commentaries online (you can probably find these online where you can read them for free):

    * Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
    * Albert Barne's Notes on the Bible
    * John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    * Matthew Henry's Commentary

    Here are some websites that helped me understand the Bible better (and they each have questions and answers about the book of Genesis):

    http://www.ChristianAnswers.org

    http://www.AnswersinGenesis.org

    And, here is a web page that specifically answers the questions you had about Cain:

    http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

    God loves you, and if you seek Him with your whole heart and soul and mind, He will let Himself be found by you.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    To develop Narkissos' point, polytheism is literally edited out here in Deuteronomy 32:8:

    4QDeut j : "When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (bny 'l[hym]). For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".
    LXX: "When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the angels of God (aggelón theou). And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance".
    MT: "When Elyon gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel (bny yshr'l). For Yahweh's portion was his people, Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".

    The oldest form of the text in the Dead Sea Scrolls posits Yahweh as one of the "sons of God" who received Israel from Elyon (= El-Elyon elsewhere in the OT) as his own "inheritance". This accords with the Canaanite belief in Ugaritic texts that El fathered seventy sons through Asherah, and the number of the nations in Genesis 10 which add up to seventy. This henotheistic conceptualization of the tutelary gods of the nations can also be detected in such passages as Judges 11:24, 1 Kings 11:33, and Jeremiah 48:7, and in the scenario in Daniel 10 (in which each nation has its own angelic "prince") which has been assimilated to monotheism. These are also angels in the LXX, which reflects the original wording of bny 'lhym (as this is how this phrase is usually rendered in the LXX), and yet the reference to angels instead of "sons of God" similarly assimilates the scenario to monotheism. Moreover, the implication that Yahweh (= "the Lord" in the LXX) is himself a "son" or "angel of God" is precluded by the removal of a reference to allotments in the first clause. Finally, the latest form of the text in the MT displays other modifications that mitigate a polytheistic or henotheistic reading. The verb bhnchl in the first clause is pointed in a way that implies that inheritance is something received by the nations, rather than that the inheritance consists of the nations themselves. Second, "sons of Israel" occurs in place of "sons of God," which obscures the relationship being Yahweh inheriting his people and the division of the peoples according to the number of the "sons of God".

    Nor is this an isolated example. In v. 43 we find another example of polytheism (or perhaps more accurately, henotheism) being airbrushed from the text:

    4QDeut j : "Rejoice, O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you gods ('lym), for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and will atone for the land of his people".
    LXX: "O heavens, rejoice with him, bow to him, all sons of God. O nations, rejoice with his people and let all the angels of God strengthen themselves in him. For he will avenge the blood of his sons. Be vengeful and render vengeance and recompense justice on his enemies, and recompense those who hate him, and the Lord will cleanse the land of his people".
    MT: "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will atone for the land of his people".

    The MT text is poetically defective in terms of parallelism, with a complete bicolon in the second and third clauses (avenge / render vengeance), without an accompanying clause in the first and fourth clauses to complete the two other bicolons (rejoice / ???, ??? / atone). The older form of the text in the Dead Sea Scrolls, on the other hand, has three well-balanced bicolons (rejoice / bow down, avenge / render vengeance, recompense / atone), and thus is probably closer to the original. The MT text replaces the personified or divinized "heavens" with "nations" and omits the "bow down" clause that makes reference to heavenly gods (i.e. "gods" in parallelism with "heavens"). The alteration of "heavens" to "nations" was apparently fairly early, for the LXX harmonizes the two readings by inserting an extra bicolon in the text that makes reference to "nations". It is also possible that this extra bicolon is original but the longer text is poetically less balanced.

  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    That is a good question...but all we can do is guess..unless you have faith in someone who actually claims to really know and was told by the one said it.

    Good luck with that.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Yo BFD! I told you to stay away from that stuff! It'll just mess you up.

    Nvr

  • knock knock
    knock knock

    and god commanded them to be fruitfull...
    for some 900+ years!!!

    I guess we know where the term Barefoot & Pregnant came from eh?

  • Mad
    Mad

    The problem in understanding this looks twofold;

    1- You haven't read the entire book, and

    2- The Trinity Fairy Tale pounded into our brains by the churches (They say God was talking to His other Split Personalities)

    Not only was Christ there as the Earth was formed- the rest of the Bible explains that God made all things through Christ- but the ANGELS were there, as well-

    Job 38: 7-" When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (God describing when the Earth was formed to Job)

    Hope this helps!

    Mad

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