More On Pharisees

by FireNBandits 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Well, it was interesting

    I often thought that "metaphysics" would be happily replaced with something like a metaphorical "physics of ideas" -- or, in that particular case, "dynamics of sectarianism", some basic rules ("laws") of which your parallelism nicely illustrates.

    As regards early Christianity, I also believe (as you pointed out earlier) that the Hellenistic reinterpretation of Wisdom shouldn't be overlooked, as it is, in fact, the main link to Judaism in the earliest versions of Christianity (Paul, John) which are available to us.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hey did I mention that I'm going to see Bart Ehrman speak this coming Wednesday? Should be very interesting.

    Another interesting question is where the term "Pharisee" came from. Did it originate as a self-designation by this social group, which saw its authority in their own teachers (rather than the Hasemonean priesthood), or was it a derogatory term used by others to refer to them which later on became adopted? It does superficially resemble the NT and early Christian use of the term hairesis to refer to the "other" in terms of religious tradition (see Acts 15:5 in the case of the Pharisees and Galatians 5:20 which parallels the haireseis with the dikhostasiai "divisions"). The Hebrew apocalypse of Daniel, which is the earliest writing that anticipates later Pharisee views (on Boccaccini's analysis), uses the term Maskilim as a self-designation at least for the community leaders loyal to the covenant during the persecution, and I can see a link between this term and the later Pharisee emphasis on "teachers"....

  • Terry
    Terry
    You're right, Paul was a Pharasee!

    Not so fast!

    Paul claimed to be a Pharisee.

    This has been addressed and reasonably refuted here:

    http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm

    The steps by which this is reasoned are not at all far-fetched.

    Read it for yourself and decide.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The Hebrew apocalypse of Daniel , which is the earliest writing that anticipates later Pharisee views (on Boccaccini's analysis), uses the term Maskilim as a self-designation at least for the community leaders loyal to the covenant during the persecution, and I can see a link between this term and the later Pharisee emphasis on "teachers"....

    A (proto-)Pharisaic insistence on lay teaching and practice can be felt especially in 11.33, The wise among the people shall give understanding to (the) many(maskile `am yabinu larabbim), or 12:3 where the maskilim lead (the) many to righteousness (or "justify" the many, maçdiqqe ha-rabbim) -- one might even wonder if Paul's leitmotiv of "justification" (dikaioô ktl.) of "the many" (hoi polloi) doesn't claim the Pharisaic tradition in a very paradoxical (i.e., law-less and Gentile-oriented) way.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos...The connection with the Pauline notion of justification is even more interesting when one realizes that these references to the Maskilim in Hebrew Daniel are themselves interpreting the fourth Servant Song in Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 53), construing the suffering Maskilim as bearing the faults of many (v. 12). Paul seems to interpret the same text as referring to justification faciliated by Jesus' crucifixion (Romans 3:26, 4:25, 5:19; compare 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:13), as the gospels later did more explicitly (e.g. Matthew 8:17, 26:63, 27:60, Mark 15:28, Luke 22:37).

    So....what should I ask Ehrman, if I get to talk to him? Since he's talking about Misquoting Jesus, I'm tempted to ask about the value of 1 Clement as an early witness of the text of 1 Corinthians. Anything better?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    And yaçdiq... ha-rabbim in v. 11!

    I've not read Misquoting Jesus, but I would be interested to know if Ehrman has reconsidered the general textual-literary trajectory of the Pauline canon before Marcion... one essential "undercritical" zone of mainstream NT scholarship so far, imho.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Hey did I mention that I'm going to see Bart Ehrman speak this coming Wednesday? Should be very interesting.

    Ask Ehrman if he is now persona non grata among the inerrantists. The whole Calvinist/Puritan/Reformed segment of mainstream Christianity might have started a Fatwah against him.

    Or......is he still on speaking terms?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I just got back from Ehrman's talk. It was standing room only, lots of people there, and Ehrman talked about textual criticism along the lines of Misquoting Jesus. He is a good speaker and gave lots of humorous anecdotes. There was a big hush in the room when he slowly and clearly demonstrated that the Nicodemus story in John 3 was composed in Greek, and what Jesus says critically turns on a double entendre in Greek and not in Aramaic, the language Jesus would have actually used. Pictures:

    I went up to the microphone in the Q&A and had to wait for a guy in front ask him if he's read the Urantia book. I asked him to say a word about Marcion and the state of the text of Paul's epistles (with a nod to Narkissos' question), and I also asked him if 1 Clement could be regarded as a witness to the first-century text of 1 Corinthians. His immediate response kind of cracked me up; he said, "You sound just like my thesis defense!" Mind you, this was after the Urantia book question and he was also fielding questions inspired by the Da Vinci Code and what not. Unfortunately, his comment about Marcion was geared for the general audience and merely talked about who Marcion was. He did give a response to my second question, namely, that while 1 Clement covers may of the themes of 1 Corinthians, it doesn't help in matters of wording (I'm not so sure, perhaps to a limited degree it might). Then after the presentation was over, I went up to him with quite a few others to have my book signed. While he has signing it, I asked him if I could ask about a minor point of Greek and mentioned the matter of prénés genomenos "became headlong" in Acts 1:18 (discussed in my "Evolution of Judas Iscariot" thread) and whether the Greek really made sense in the context. His reaction was priceless: "Who are you?!" LOL!! I gave a really hasty rushed introduction (as there were so many people around vying for attention), and after he gave the usual "falling" interpretation (which depends in part on harmonization with Matthew), I mentioned Papias who has préstheis instead and mentioned how both Papias and Acts 1 utilize the same OT intertext, Psalm 69, to which he concurred, although perhaps he was just trying to get me out of his hair....who is this asking me all these technical questions?? Kinda like a Trekkie at a Star Trek convention asking James Doohan about technical specs of the antimatter reactor in the Enterprise engine core.

    (Sorry for the off-topic post, I wanted to give an update and share my amusing experience tonight)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    LOL. Thanks for trying...

    Sort of sums up the (Promethean?) curse of scientific popularisation maybe; becoming vulnerable to the technicalities of "pure scholarship" while never getting nearly as popular as the wholly unscientific...

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I should also mention that it was so overflowing that I could only get a seat in the balcony on the second floor of the auditorium, so I had to go downstairs, and walk carefully through people sitting at the entrances just so I could go up to the microphone in the aisle. When I sat down in the balcony, I sat next to two twentysomething guys who had a copy of the Bible with them. But not just any Bible, I recognized the layout with the scriptural references in the middle of each page, it had to be a NWT. And when the guy closed the book, I saw that it was indeed a New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. So I wondered the whole time if these guys who sat next to me were JWs, if they were openminded JWs, if they had been on the internet, etc.

    Terry...Bart did talk about what it was like living in the Bible Belt teaching critical scholarship at college, as his undergraduate students often come from an evangelical background. He gave one anecdote that was rather funny and pertinent to JWs, concerning when he first arrived at Chapel Hill. He said a book had been published called Eighty-Eight Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 by Edgar Whisenant, and he said it caused quite a stir such that many of his initial students had read it and some had parents who had sold the farm to wait out the end, and one of the 88 reasons was the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-33, and since Israel was pictured symbolically as a fig tree in the OT, and the blossoming of the fig tree in spring represents the restoration of Israel, and when did that happen? In 1948. Then right after this, it says in v. 34 that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." A generation in the Bible is 40 years, so 1948 + 40, bingo! 1988. Whisenant also believed that the rapture would occur during the week of Rosh Hashanah. When people then pointed out that nobody is supposed to know the day or hour, Whisenant said: "Well, I know the week not the day!" Great line, and we all laughed pretty hard. I had to wonder what those possible JWs sitting next to me thought of this.

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