Are apostates stopping the WT from mainstreaming?

by expatbrit 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • expatbrit

    I was thinking about this UN thing. On one of the threads, someone had commented how the WT's association with the UN would explain a lot of the changes in WT policy regarding blood, disfellowshipping etc. I think this is likely.

    It is entirely possible therefore, that the UN association has been a good thing. It has brought the WT along the road of further mainstreaming themselves. When you look at the many corners they have painted themselves into because of their cult practices, it does appear that the only way forward for the WT, the only way they can get themselves out of the stagnation they have fallen into, is further mainstreaming.

    For those of us who have family members still inside the WT, this may also be a good thing. Let's face it, most of our JW family will never be convinced by our "apostate" reasonings. The cult conditioning is too strong. That means that if the WT doesn't continue to change, practices such as shunning will never die. But if the WT does continue along the road of becoming a mainstream religion, there is a prospect of shunning, blood policy etc being ditched sometime in the medium to long term.

    But, is it possible that we are slowing, or even preventing, this mainstreaming process? Take the UN thing. It seems a definite move toward becoming more integrated with the world in general. Yet, if the WT gets bad publicity, loses members, maybe even (horror of horrors!) takes a financial hit when their mainstreaming practices are exposed by "apostates", will it not disincline them from further mainstreaming, and make them retreat into the cult mentality even further?

    The WT's actions are hypocritical in the extreme. There is no doubt of that. What is best? Exposing the hypocrisy, which may cause a few existing members to leave, and probably causes large numbers of potential members to stay away, or restraining the expose's, thereby allowing the WT to progress faster along the mainstreaming road?

    I don't know the answer to that, obviously. I have pre-supposed there is a mainstreaming movement in the WT, but that may be an error. What is best, the carrot or the stick?


  • metatron

    you raise a good point - one that's been brought up before at the
    old h20.

    I don't worry much about creating such an impediment to the
    Society's effort to go mainstream. I think it ought to be clear
    from the recent special meeting that the leadership is utterly
    uninspired and clueless. They believe that any trouble they get
    into will blow over in a couple of weeks or be explained away.
    Keep in mind, too, that the Society is not a monolith, any more than
    Communism was. I expect that most of the mainstreaming effort
    comes from the "men in the middle", who chip away at the rigid
    Taliban-like structure of doctrine and practise.

    Actually internet exposure probably accelerates the process of
    compromise because it emboldens both those who are creating
    the mainstreaming ("Wow!, look what we can do/find out about!")
    --- and it emboldens others who realize that they can lie their
    way out of anything, defy any set of facts, and still command the
    unswerving loyalty of countless braindead Witnesses. They must
    laugh themselves silly behind the scenes at their fantastic ability
    to get away with anything in the mindset of these willing suckers.

    Ever look into the eyes of a Labrador Retriever -you repeat their
    name and they wag their tail? - pretty much Joe Average Witness
    isn't it?


    BATHORY have obviously had limited association with any in the faith with iq's above their ages, which reflects negatively on the sort of person you apparently are. Dont assume and judge that all in the faith are braindead.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    I wouldn't rush to judgement on anyone, Bathory, least of all Metatron. While it's fair to say that not all JWs are unintelligent or insensitive, it's also fair to say that the bright and beautiful among them are far fewer than pre-1980, when all this ``apostate'' nonsense began.
    When all an organization requires is uncritical, unthinking acceptance of every word of its leadership, what is it reasonable to expect deep-thinking persons to do, except to leave or move quietly to the periphery?

  • Moxy

    this is a good point expat. actually i tend to agree with meta that exposure to information in general can only be a good thing in terms of mainstreaming. this is true in the general awareness of the world and resulting inability to maintain seclusionist thinking among members at all ranks. and it also might be true in the society's reaction to further mainstream to counter the increasing dissedence. this second point is less clear and obviously could go the other way too. but i think we would all agree that since the net has entered the lives of the general populace, the effect has been increased mainstreaming, though far slower than we might wish.

    however, there are methods of disseminating information that seems counter-productive. methods that fit those that the society teaches its members to expect from apostates: bitterness, slyness, exaggeration, 'smooth talk,' etc. like comment was saying about the guardian article on the UN DPI, it helps if we make a double effort to avoid these methods, even the appearance of them. lol, that sounds like theocratese doesnt it? avoiding not merely wrongdoing but the mere appearance of it. well, like expat, i have family to think of, and any little bit that helps is a good thing.


  • Pubsinger

    I see where you are going with this expat.

    I think one of the things we should ask is, "What does this UN stuff prove?"

    I think that arriving at the right conclusion here is v impt.

    Does association with the UN prove that WTBTS is not God's Org?
    I do not believe that that conclusion can be reached as it would imply that association with the UN is against God's law.

    Surely the only safe conclusion that can be reached based on this or any other piece of info we have on WT, ie SilentLambs, wrong interpretation, dodgy history etc is that:

    Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's EXCLUSIVE channel or EXCLUSIVE people. God does not use them EXCLUSIVELY or ALL of the time.

    However when at times, whether individually or collectively they act in harmony with Gods' will, law or purposes, God acknowledges or accepts them.

    This applies to other religions. They are not Gods' organisation but they do have his approval.

    I too hope that this will force JW towards the mainstream, even if they cannot admit it.

    Afterall being an NGO linked to the UN is a good thing not a bad thing.

  • wannahelp

    Very interesting thoughts..

    Being an outsider, and just looking in as someone who has done some research on JW's, but obviously doesn't have any first hand knowledge of what it's like to be a witness, the first observation I've noticed is that the organization doesn't seem to do anything to become more 'mainstream' until pushed into that position..

    Well before the organization was associated with the UN, they changed the policy on organ transplants, for instance..

    My guess is that the organization isn't becoming more mainstream because of the UN association, but because it 'has' to in order to keep up it's numbers... I recently read somewhere that they were changing alot of the stuff in Japan in the hopes to keep the younger generation interested in staying with the organization, because they were loosing soo many, and were unable to recruit new people..

    The bottom line to me would be that mainstream would mean a real tolerance of other religions, an acceptance of other people, such as real Christianity professes.. That would mean to me they would have to give up the 'mind control' they have over their brothers and sisters. I haven't seen any signs they are willing to let the R&F witnesses think for themselves, etc.. And the reason for this is quite simple, if they were allowed to, they'd see the F&DS wasn't, and leave in record numbers...

    I agree, they need to mainstream and become a real part of Christianity.. But, nothing I have seen would indicate to me that they are trying to become mainstream.. They still try to seperate themselves from others, and they still control the minds of the R&F.

    The witnesses are vey good people, but until the GB releases them from their slavery, they will never be mainstream, even if they see 'new light' occasionaly that allows them organ transplants, partial blood transfusions, or whatever other 'new light' that the rest of the world saw long ago and is old light to us, they come up with..

    As for the UN thing itself, I have no clue what it will do.. But I don't exposing the UN/WT association can hurt.. The only possible thing I can thing the WT can use out of this is, "See, it's a sign.. They are trying to stop our preaching work" or something... Let them have their signs.. At some point all the "signs" will point to the end of the world, and just like 1975, when the world continues on, that's when the majority of R&F will hopefully realize that it's all a farse, and then the UN issue, Pedophile issue, and all the other issues will serve to 'add up' to the R&F that they need to exit stage left immediatly..

    In the mean time, you are protecting the general public from being sucked into the cult in the first place.. Imagine what is going to happen when the WT uses the "Theocratic warfare strategy" as a defense to the UN association.. Hopefully the press will pounce all over that, and then the entire world will know about the 'you mean you lie to us to get us to see the light, but that is for our own benefit' strategy.. Thanks but no thanks (closing door sound).. As soon as that becomes public knowledge, I would seriously question wether or not the organization will get any new recruits, period..

    That by itself may cause them to try and become more mainstream!!!! Remove their underhanded tools of deceit in their recruiting, and they may actually have to tell the truth.. I wonder how many 'new converts' there would be if the JW's actually told the entire truth of their religion from 'bible aid study #1'?

    I just hope that they use the theocratic warfare strategy as a defense.. And I cannot see any other defense they can use, as anything else will be an admission of guilt that they purposfully created an association with the beast.. One will stop new recruits from joining them, the other will cause a mass exodus of current JW's.. Either way, I think 'stopping' the pressure would be a bad thing...

    Just my $.02

  • TR

    Is the WTS mainstreaming or just trying to find any means to make their brand of religion look more legitimate to the world? Or, is that the same thing as mainstreaming? To actually mainstream, wouldn't the WTS have make some major doctrinal changes, thus risking free thinking among it's members, and possibly lose them? I think the WTS would rather continue the ruse of being God's chosen orginization and keep trying to fool the 'world' into thinking it IS mainstream.


    I think Meta means braindead in the context of blindly following the WTS. Correct me if I'm wrong, Metatron. I know some very intelligent people who are JW's. Professional people like lawyers. It astounded me to talk to this lawyer and find out I know far more about the WTS than he does. But, then again, he's braindead.


    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
    —Edmund Burke

  • Englishman

    Piss off, Bathory.

    You were a pain in the ass at H20, you and your ilk would be much better off elsewhere.


    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....

  • nelly136

    personally I think they will carry on as they please regardless of
    any 'apostate' activity, the £$ signs of tax relief/subsidies that come from being recognised as a mainstream religion have more poke than all of us put together,I dont believe the UN thing will change anything theyve been happily advertising UN assosciations in the watchtower and awake for years, no one can say they were fooled because it was right there under their noses all the time, nothing covert about it just a slow but sure flickering of new light.
    nelly faqs...shunning does not affect family lives
    (one face for the public another for those who've suffered it)

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