They will have 1000 years to pay for their sins and prove themsleves to Christ.
Ah, but the penalty for their sins is DEATH (Rom 6:23), not labor.
Those who enter paridise, how are their sins paid for?
by drew sagan 31 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
M.J.
-
heathen
I think technically we die because God had cut adam and eve off from the tree of life , of which the bible does say they could live indefinately if they were still allowed to eat it's fruit. Adam and eve did forfeit our right to live eternally by sinning but there was a loophole in Gods law that allowed for a sacrifice of equal value ( a perfect man) to compensate our loss thus there was no longer need for blood sacrifices to atone for sins and receive Gods blessings and mercy . Jesus could also offer mankind a chance at being a spirit and helping rule mankind in his kingdom millenial reign.
-
M.J.
According to Romans 6, Sin was your master. But death freed you from sin. Your physical death? No, your death to SIN! In becoming united with Christ, you also became united with him in his death. In his death your old sinful self DIED. This freed/aquitted you from sin!
Romans 6:2 says, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (past tense)
v4: "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death..." (past tense)
v6: "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin"
v7: "for he who has died is freed from sin." (he who has died TO SIN has been freed from it--see v2).
v8: "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him." (past tense)
v10: "For the death that He died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God."
v11: "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (present tense!)
-
bebu
In Judaism, only the offended party can forgive you your sin. You must make amends or pay a fine. That is why murder cannot be forgiven; the deceased is not around to accept your apology or restitution! (Ere the Jews were scandalized by Jesus' forgiving of others' sins.)
Who is the offended party to Adam's sin? Was Adam's death payment for the sin of disobedience? How about, death is the natural and only consequence of any creation distancing one's self away from God? If Jesus has to take the place of Adam (while alive) and pay restitution for the sin of disobedience; to whom is the price paid but to the offended party (God). ??
Jesus is the offended party, takes the place of the offender and then dies in order to make amends for the offence he committed against himself!!! Paradoxes aplenty. Jesus also called himself Alpha and Omega in Revelation. He has all angles covered.
Even if Jesus is not god you have the innocent party (Jesus) being punished for the guilty party (Adam) as well as making just one death (Jesus') expand quantitatively to cover the deaths of billions of humans (Adam's offspring). Pretty good bang for one death. Are you complaining?
The payment of the innocent person's death is paid to the innocent person's own Dad who allows this transaction to occur and calls it JUSTICE!! It seems more like mercy than justice to me (even though it is both).
The offended party is God, right? In what way was God, jehovah or jesus god offended to the extent 6000+ years of human suffering and death were not enough to quell the sense of damage?? Human life, death, pain, and freedom and the holiness of God are not shallow subjects. Treating them like a quick math problem is not ever going to reveal the reality that God sees.
Why is Jesus death as a demi-god, god, son of god (take your pick) so similar to the pagan idea of the death and resurrection of their make believe deities? How did the unbelieving pagans correctly guess the sacred secret???? Surprise! God loves unbelieving pagans enough to show them something meaningful and helpful. God's a bit more helpful and gratuitous than we can suspect (and much more than the WTS teaches).
bebu
-
Terry
Bebu remonstrates: The payment of the innocent person's death is paid to the innocent person's own Dad who allows this transaction to occur and calls it JUSTICE!! It seems more like mercy than justice to me (even though it is both).
Okay. Let us look at each element individually, then.
JUSTICE: Getting what you deserve according to your actions/inactions measurable by a standard.
MERCY: Allow intention, circumstance and attitude to mitigate the attribution of guilt or deservedness of reward.
Therefore:
If God's perfect standard of Justice is a correct tool of determining deservedness it cannot both accuse and mitigate by the same measure of perfection. It either has to be too severe in the first place (which requires mercy) or too lenient (which requires greater punishment.)
Perfect is as perfect does.
JUSTICE in human terms is subject to all sorts of errors of perception, detection, imperfection and requires a kind of escape valve when pressure builds up that causes severe retribution when it is should not be called for under special circumstances.
Jehovah's JUSTICE is not subject to this sort of distortion. Therefore, mercy can only indicate a problem with the standard itself.
-
Terry
According to Romans 6, Sin was your master. But death freed you from sin. Your physical death? No, your death to SIN! In becoming united with Christ, you also became united with him in his death. In his death your old sinful self DIED. This freed/aquitted you from sin!
Romans 6:2 says, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (past tense)
v4: "Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death..." (past tense)
v6: "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin"
v7: "for he who has died is freed from sin." (he who has died TO SIN has been freed from it--see v2).
v8: "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him." (past tense)
v10: "For the death that He died, he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God."
v11: "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (present tense!)
Well, nice try.
Doesn't wash, however.
A person who is dead to sin cannot commit a sin. Christian born-again forgiven critters sin all the time.
How do you account for that? They are dead to sin, yet, they sin. I see a discrepancy.
Further, if God no longer counts what they are doing (when they continue to sin) AS sin, the perfect standard of Justice is neither perfect nor a standard. It is a WHIM.
The metaphors are really flying in your scriptures above because the writer doesn't even have a grasp on what is being discussed.
Death isn't physical and then it is and then it isn't.
Sin is bad, then impossible, then doesn't count.
Words which can mean anything end up meaning nothing.
Justice which must be over ruled is imperfect.
-
Terry
I think technically we die because God had cut adam and eve off from the tree of life , of which the bible does say they could live indefinately if they were still allowed to eat it's fruit. Adam and eve did forfeit our right to live eternally by sinning but there was a loophole in Gods law that allowed for a sacrifice of equal value ( a perfect man) to compensate our loss thus there was no longer need for blood sacrifices to atone for sins and receive Gods blessings and mercy . Jesus could also offer mankind a chance at being a spirit and helping rule mankind in his kingdom millenial reign.
Alas! Sounds like a comic book plot!
A mysterious tree with magic fruit!
A talking snake!
A curse!
A super hero!
Death! Life! Invisible people!
-
poppers
Keep serving up those responses, people. I enjoy watching Terry knock them out of the park.
-
M.J.
The validity of the idea of Christ's sacrifice is a distraction from Drew's original question. If interested, someone should start another thread for it.
-
Terry
The validity of the idea of Christ's sacrifice is a distraction from Drew's original question. If interested, someone should start another thread for it.
The paying for sins is THE issue, isn't it?
To pay for something you have to know what you are paying for and what the price is and from whom you are buying it.
To judge from the umpteenth book the Watchtower Society has printed; it all starts in Eden.
God receives payment for sins. Why?
God demands death. Why?
If life is a GIFT from God, man should be free to use the gift as he chooses without strings attached.
However, every person born is regarded by God as IN DEBT.
Jesus was the second Adam and took Adam's place.
Who is the Second Eve and takes Eve's place?