How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico 58 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    The WTS arguments are pretty weak here:

    ***w55 9/1p.543Questions FromReaders***

    QuestionsFromReaders

    ?Trinitarianspoint toJohn20:28 asproofthat Jesus isGod.ThereThomassaid(NW):"MyMasterandmyGod!"How canthisargumentbeanswered?—F.W.,PhilippineRepublic.

    Jesus is a god. "God" means a strong one. Christ is called "The mighty God" at Isaiah 9:6, "a god" at John 1:1 (NW), and "the only-begotten god" at John 1:18 (NW). Jehovah is not the only god or strong one. The very fact that he is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty, not almighty like him. So Thomas could call Jesus God, but not THE God, and three verses later Jesus is called "the Son of God," as we read (NW): "But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." So there was no objection to John’s reporting that Thomas addressed Jesus as a deity, and certainly John does not say that Thomas’ address to Jesus was to make us believe that Jesus was The God, but says it was to make us believe Jesus was God’s Son. In this same chapter (20:17, NW) Jesus said: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." He was not ascending to himself.

    But now the trinitarians will say Thomas used the Greek definite article "the" (ho) before "God," proving he called Jesus The God. The article "the" is in the nominative case in the Greek, but the word "God" here is in the vocative case and of such A. T. Robertson says in his AGrammaroftheGreekNewTestamentintheLightofHistoricalResearch, on page 461: "The article with the vocative in address was the usual Hebrew and Aramaic idiom, as indeed in Aristophanes we have hopaisakoloúthei. It is good Greek and good Aramaic too when we have Abbáhopatér (Mark 14:36) whether Jesus said one or both. In Matthew 11:26 (nai,hopatér) we have the vocative. When the article is used, of course the nominative form must occur. Thus in Rev. 18:20 we have both together, ouranékaihoihágioi. Indeed the second member of the address is always in the nominative form. Thus Kýrie,hoTheós,hopantokrátor (Rev. 15:3). Compare John 20:28." Page 462: "When Thomas said Hokýriosmoukaihotheósmou (John 20:28), he gave Christ full acceptance of his deity and of the fact of his resurrection." Page 466: "In John 20:28 Thomas addresses Jesus as hokýriosmoukaihotheós, the vocative like those above. Yet, strange to say, Winer calls this exclamation rather than address, apparently to avoid the conclusion that Thomas was satisfied as to the deity of Jesus by his appearance to him after the resurrection. Dr. E. A. Abbott follows suit also in an extended argument to show that kýriehotheós is the LXX way of addressing God, not hokýrioskaihotheós. But after he had written he appends a note to p. 95 to the effect that ‘this is not quite satisfactory. For [John] xiii. 13 phonéitemehodidáskaloskaihokýrios, and Rev. 4:11 áxiosei,hokýrioskaihotheóshemón, ought to have been mentioned above.’ This is a manly retraction, and he adds: ‘John may have used it here exceptionally.’ Leave out ‘exceptionally’ and the conclusion is just. If Thomas used Aramaic he certainly used the article. It is no more exceptional in John 20:28 than in Rev. 4:11."

    So, since the use of the definite article was made before the form of address to anybody, Thomas’ use of the definite article does not force his use of God to mean The God, Jehovah. Jehovah was not begotten, but existed without beginning. But according to John 1:18 (NW) Christ was the only god or strong one directly begotten or created by Jehovah, however.

    So Jehovah is The God; Jesus Christ is one of many who are called gods. Satan is called "the god of this system of things," Moses was said to be as god to Pharaoh, and in the Psalms men are called gods, and Jesus referred to this and argued that hence the Jews should not say he blasphemed when he said he was God’s Son. And the apostle Paul said there are many called gods. But to argue that these many different ones called gods are, by virtue of this fact, The God Jehovah would be absurd. Similarly, it is absurd to try to argue that Thomas’ reference to Jesus as god proves Jesus is The God, and doubly so when just three verses later Jesus is identified as God’s Son.—2 Cor. 4:4, NW; Ex. 7:1; Ps. 82:6; John 10:35; 1 Cor. 8:5.

    Incidentally, in view of the existence of so many called gods, does it not establish the need for The God, the Almighty God, to have a distinguishing name, that is, Jehovah?

    ***g054/22 p.9"Those WhoAre Called‘Gods’"***

    ‘Why, then,’ one may ask, ‘did Thomas exclaim when seeing the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"?’ As already noted, Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Jesus had just told Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to myGodandyourGod." Remember, too, why John wrote his Gospel. Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people "may believe that JesusistheChristtheSonofGod"—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.

    ***

    w921/15 p.23 WhatDotheScriptures SayAbout"theDivinityofChrist"?***

    Addressing the resurrected Jesus, the apostle Thomas exclaimed: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28) This and other accounts were "written down that [we] may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God." And Thomas was not contradicting Jesus, who had sent His disciples the message: "I am ascending to . . . my God and your God." (John 20:17, 30, 31) So Thomas did not think that Jesus was Almighty God. Thomas may have addressed Jesus as "my God" in the sense of Christ’s being "a god," though not "the only true God." (John 1:1; 17:1-3) Or by saying "my God," Thomas may have been acknowledging Jesus as God’s Spokesman and Representative, even as others addressed an angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah.—Compare Genesis 18:1-5, 22-33; 31:11-13; 32:24-30; Judges 2:1-5; 6:11-15; 13:20-22.

    ***

    rsp.213Jesus Christ***

    Does

    Thomas’exclamationatJohn20:28provethat Jesusis trulyGod?

    John 20:28 (RS) reads: "Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’"

    There is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as "gods." (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as "the only-begotten god." (See also Ro,By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as "Mighty God," but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as "a god," or "divine," at John 1:1 (NW,AT).

    The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: "I am ascending . . . to my God and your God." (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself "the only true God" or that Jesus is a Trinitarian "God the Son," he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).

    ***

    w886/1p.19AccurateKnowledge ofGodand HisSon Leads to Life***

    "My

    LordandMyGod"

    13

    Trinitarians also cite John 20:28 to support their claims. There Thomas said to Jesus: "My Lord and my God!" As shown above, there is no objection to Thomas’ referring to Jesus as a god. Such would be in harmony with the fact that Jesus, in his prehuman existence, certainly was a god, that is, a powerful, divine person. And he certainly has been that since his death and resurrection to heavenly life. Jesus even quoted from the Psalms to show that powerful humans were addressed as "gods." (Psalm 82:1-6; John 10:34, 35) The apostle Paul noted that there were "many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords.’" (1 Corinthians 8:5) Even Satan is called "the god of this system of things."—2 Corinthians 4:4.

    14 Christ occupies a position far higher than imperfect men, or Satan. If such can be referred to as "gods," surely Jesus can be, and was, referred to as a god. Because of his unique position in relation to Jehovah, Jesus is "the only-begotten god" (John 1:18), a "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6), and "a god" (John 1:1). So there was nothing improper about Thomas’ referring to Jesus in that way. Thomas was saying that Jesus was a god to him, a divine, powerful one. But he was not saying that Jesus was Jehovah, which is why Thomas said, "my" God and not "the" God.

    15 Just three verses later, at John 20:31, the Bible states: "But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ theSonofGod." All doubt as to what Thomas may have meant is dispelled here. The Bible writer John clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God, not almighty God himself.

    ***it-2pp.55-56 JesusChrist***

    On the occasion of Jesus’ appearance to Thomas and the other apostles, which had removed Thomas’ doubts of Jesus’ resurrection, the now-convinced Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: "My Lord and my God! [literally, "The Lord of me and the God (hoThe·os´) of me!"]." (Joh 20:24-29) Some scholars have viewed this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. However, others claim the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the expression "My Lord and my God" would still have to harmonize with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. Since the record shows that Jesus had previously sent his disciples the message, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and tomyGod and your God," there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. (Joh 20:17) John himself, after recounting Thomas’ encounter with the resurrected Jesus, says of this and similar accounts: "But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."—Joh 20:30, 31.

    So, Thomas may have addressed Jesus as "my God" in the sense of Jesus’ being "a god" though not the Almighty God, not "the only true God," to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray. (Joh 17:1-3) Or he may have addressed Jesus as "my God" in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. (Compare Ge 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-33; 32:24-30; Jg 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, "I am the true God." (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as "my God" in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas’ words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, "The Father is greater than I am."—Joh 14:28.

    These are pretty weak arguments that the WTS feels obligated to make because they have to say something.

    It's like interviewing little boys who ALSO slept in the same bed with Michael Jackson. Their statements don't help much so you
    use them in any way you can- "I spent many nights in the same bed with him, and he never touched ME."

    WTS claims to know the mind of Thomas, or at least what he could have been up to, just as a little boy would think he knew the
    mind of Michael Jackson. In reality, we can imagine why Michael never got around to touching EVERY boy, and we can imagine
    what Thomas meant.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    What I look at is the overall picture of the NT

    This is very understandable but imo it is nonetheless a mistake. Assume you have read all the books in your local library. Do you think you could gather "the overall picture of the library" on any controversial topic like "God," "religion" or "the meaning of life"? If you could, would that picture do justice to any of the particular books in it?

    It seems much better to me not to assume that the authors of the NT texts would necessarily agree much more with each other than the authors of your library would just because their works eventually came to be printed under the same cover. And read every work for its own worth. Sometimes you will find partial agreement -- but agreement can never be taken for granted. Some can say almost the same thing under different words, or say widely different things under the same words...

    which makes Jesus subordinate to the Father as He Himself admitted after all.

    If there is a Johannine paradox here it is: in the same text the highest Christology coincides with the deepest expressions of subordination, submission, dependence. The Son is God because he is nothing else -- he is and does nothing by or out of himself, etc.; this ultimately implies an open theology which embraces the reader/hearer (the less you play "God" the more you are "God"?)

    Should you look at other NT texts you would find that Jesus is both more and less than that -- a prophet, a new Moses, a "divine man", a heavenly being subject to "God" but superior to "man"...

    We have a variety of meals with many flavours: shall we taste them separately or mix them all together to get the "overall taste"?

  • Zico
    Zico

    Thanks Greendawn and Pahpa for giving me some things to think about it. Since I'm still working out what I believe, it's good to read stuff like your posts (Which are certainly better than the Society's strawman arguments against the Trinity) Personally, I don't think it matters that much, since if it was a necessary doctrine, it would surely have been made more clear, but theology is a cool thing to discuss. I do find myself agreeing with Narkissos that the different writers of the bible have different opinions about who Jesus actually was. For John, Jesus was God, I think. As shown by his quoting of Thomas and John 1:1. Pahpa and Greendawn, you seem to focus on subordination, and on this issue, I wonder why subordination would even matter to two spirit beings who are said to have lived together in eternal love?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The Mason Jews were funding the JWs or Bible Students as were then known because Russell was very pro zionist. They supported them at least until the mid 1920's and perhaps they still do so in secret.

    Sure, greendawn. The "Mason Jews" would certainly have many occult reasons to be interested in the welfare of Rutherford's WTSwhen it rejected Zionism, reverted to mainstream "substitution theology" of "true Israel," blamed the economical woes of the Western world on "Jewish big business," praised the early Nazi regime as a step in the good direction, and permanently became a Christian sect exclusive of any other membership (including Masonic).

    Ach, dat Juden! (in Chaplin's tone).

  • Zico
    Zico

    OTWO, Thanks for the quotes, more examples of the WT arguing that Thomas can't have believed Jesus was God, basically because it destroys their doctrine. It also begs that question, if Jesus isn't the 'One true God' but is still a God/god, surely that makes him a 'false' God?

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    Zico

    I don't think we'll settle the debate of Christ's relationship to God as it has been argued to death (literally in the case of Calvin and Servetus) since the 5th century. The Trinity doctrine demands the "equality" of Father and Son. Subordination would contradict the basis of the doctrine. Paul makes it clear that even in the future after "all things" are subject to Christ, Christ himself subjects himself to God. (1 Corinthians 15:26-28) And this would certainly fit the definition of "subordinate....subject to the authority or control of another."

    I am amused at your question as to whether Greendawn and I were "polytheists." This is exactly the charge that Jews and Muslims make against trinitarian Christians because of their convuluted attempt to explain the doctrine.

    I have always been convinced that one of the reasons the trinity became the leading doctrine of orthodoxy in the church was because of the strong anti-semitic movement that developed. This doctrine in particular separated the last connection between Jews and Christians. And eventually gave the church an excuse to persecute the Jews as "God killers."

  • Terry
    Terry

    There are two ways to approach every scripture in the bible.

    1.The bible is a true rendering of actual events and preserved by Almighty God to serve his purpose. Therefore, it is only a matter of gaining clarity through proper methodology.

    2.The bible is almost anything but true events and badly garbled at that. Consequently, it doesn't bring any enligtenment to parse words, phrases, sentence structure or context because the reports themselves are bogus.

    Haven't our years of being steeped in the bitter tea of Watchtower double-think made any of us slightly more skeptical than to treat such explanations (of John 20 or any other scripture) as even possible of determining a fact in isolation of text?

    The meaning of scripture is not a science made possible by grammar!

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    Greendawn

    I know that Russell backed the Zionists because of his own belief that the Jews would return to Palestine before "the end." And I know that he did speak at several Zionist meetings for which he might have been compensated. But I'm not aware that the Jews regularly financed the Watchtower Society. Do you have any facts that would confirm this?

  • Zico
    Zico

    Hi Pahpa,

    : I don't think we'll settle the debate of Christ's relationship to God as it has been argued to death

    That's why I don't really think it's that important, if it was, it would be more obvious.

    :The Trinity doctrine demands the "equality" of Father and Son

    Is it not possible for 3 persons to be part of one God, but for one of the persons to make up a bigger part?

    : I am amused at your question as to whether Greendawn and I were "polytheists."

    As long as you weren't offended, that's good. :)

    : I have always been convinced that one of the reasons the trinity became the leading doctrine of orthodoxy in the church was because of the strong anti-semitic movement that developed. This doctrine in particular separated the last connection between Jews and Christians. And eventually gave the church an excuse to persecute the Jews as "God killers."

    Interesting viewpoint. (But doesn't the quote where Thomas called Jesus God pre-date the early fathers Trinity doctrine?)

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me Pahpa.

    Terry,

    Do you ever have more than 2 ways to approach something? ;) JWs believe your first approach, so it is up to them to explain any inconsistency between clear bible texts and their doctrine.

  • ANewLeif
    ANewLeif

    I am at least a polytheist. I may be an omnitheist. I am not a Trinitarian. I see nothing in the NT that says Christians believed the Israelites were correct about the nature of deity, but a lot to suggest Christians believed the Israelites incorrect about the nature of deity.

    Ultimately, the Catholic church decided what was and was not canonical and attempted to eradicate as heretical whatever they did not approve. There was extreme bias applied to the canonization of Scripture. Decisions were heavily influenced by politics and the doctrines held by the most powerful people in the Catholic church. God did not protect the text from corruption which leads to three possible conclusions. Either God doesn't think the NT as it currently exists needs to be free from all error in order to convey spiritual truths, or God didn't protect it due to some reason we can't comprehend, or God doesn't exist.

    ANL

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