What does it mean to be saved?

by tan 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  1. First you have to consider yourself as a human being to be worthless, wicked, sinful, impure and deserving of death.

  2.Next, you have to be convinced that your utter lack of value is deserved! After all, your ancient ancestors ate something they weren't supposed to; so, why shouldn't you be considered a wretch? You carry their DNA!!

  3. You must face the fact you are going to die. Then, you must buy the idea that you can escape being dead!

  4.Since you are weak, can't trust your mind or your heart, naturally you are expected to correctly identify which of the thousands of competing messeges about salvation are indeed correct and then comply!

  5.If you brave those odds and accidentally choose correctly and comply with the necessary rituals and behaviors you get to join a group of equally naive souls who become utterly convinced they are right and everybody else is wrong.

  So, in a nutshell, you have to think there is such a thing as inheritable sin and that such a thing demonstrates the justice of a Supreme Being.

  On the downside....

  If you hear the messege of Jehovah's Witnesses and it doesn't make sense to you--it marks you for destruction (no matter how badly it is presented to you or how unconvincing it seems).

  You are better off to remain ignorant until Armageddon and throw yourself upon God's mercy.
• 

  tan

  Crumpet you are a mess lol.
• 

  Perry

  It simply means victory. Humans can imagine righteousness, and morality but they cannot stop doing the things that they themselves have decided is wrong. That's called failure.

  Others who deny that this is true are quickly shown their own error after a few basic questions. Most just seek denial and other pacifying measures as a sort of ointment to keep them from thinking about the predictament that they are in. This "sauce" that they are on serves a useful purpose because it keeps them from having a complete meltdown and shooting little girls in the head like a couple of young evolutionists did at Columbine High School who disconnected socially and dared face reality (purposelessness) without God.

  You can accept your failure as a moral creature and waste your time with illusions; or you can allow God to work inside you to repair the damaged part, that's called success.

  You must be born again because there is nothing inside you to change your destiny as a moral failure. We are depraved. Being born again is a biblical term denoting the receiving of a new spirit. It's not just an attitude like the WT indicates, it is very real.

  As others pointed out, it seems easy to "come to Jesus". I used to roll my eyes at Christians that I'd meet in field service, when they would tell me about believing in Christ. The fact is you cannot come to Jesus unless it is granted you. This might seem harsh but it's not, it's reality. Jesus said that he would accept ALL that come to him. Do ALL come, no? Only those called. Do we know who is called or will be called? No. If we judge, then that is evidence that we have may have not actually come to him ourselves and may still be unsaved.

  So, if all who come are saved and those who do not come, can't; then what is the conclusion of the matter? This: none can come; to save any they must be called.

  To be saved is the exact same as being conformed into the likeness as the Son. This is the destiny of those who are called. The destiny of those who refuse to come to Jesus is simply more moral failure, eventual death, and then punishment .... likely in similar measure to that which we have judged others who are guilty of the same crimes we commited.

  Some may object by saying that since I cannot come unless I'm called, why should I even try. Re-read the previous sentence over and over until you see the self-fulfilling prophecy. God has arranged things in such a way so that even though he does the choosing, and All who come to Jesus are guaranteed salvation, it is our response that determines our destiny. It is quite fascinating.
• 

  Crumpet

  Crumpet you are a mess lol.

  I'll take that as a compliment Tan! Terry - brilliant brilliant post - you come out with just some total gems!
• 

  Terry

  Terry - brilliant brilliant post - you come out with just some total gems!

  Oh shucks...I just reach waaaaay down; that's all.
• 

  Doug Mason

  What does it mean to be saved?
  
  What an almighty question!
  
  It means that when God looks at you he sees someone who is absolutely perfect, completely sinless, without fault. He sees someone who is completely in harmony with his own will.
  
  God sees this perfection because Jesus, the perfect one, places his prefect, sinless, faultless nature on our behalf. The holy spirit joins in, pleading our case before God. It is a system that has been initiated and carried to its conclusion by God. What a team to have on our side!
  
  Paul writes: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:1 - 2, NIV)
  
  To be “justified” means to be “just-as-if-I’d” never sinned. And this state is given on the basis of FAITH – not on the basis of intellectual prowess, theological knowledge, or doctrinal accuracy. It does not depend on my feelings or my state of mind. It does not depend on religious affiliation, piety, or on any generous donations. This state is provided because God said so and because God provided the means, through the completed work of the Son of God.
  
  When Paul writes “we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”, he is speaking of being at peace with God’s requirements, because Jesus has satisfied them. This is not speaking about a peaceful serenity, but about a technical peace.
  
  Doug
• 

  Narkissos

  If you stop reducing Christianity to (Luther's understanding of) Paul, the perspective greatly changes...

  What about oft-neglected alternative ways, like, "stop judging and you will not be judged"? Or, in the Epistle of James' terms, "mercy triumphs over judgment"?

  Or the Johannine version of eternal life being (inner) knowledge of the Father and/or love?

  Not to mention the enigmatic gospel saying, "those who want to save their life/soul will lose it, and those who lose their life/soul for my sake will find it"...

  Whereas salvation is indeed a key notion of early Christianity (and many other contemporary religions, though not a common feature of religion in general), there is a wide variety of views about both what it means and what it takes to be "saved".
• 

  Perry

  Nark confuses "what it takes" with conviction. For instance the following:

  "stop judging and you will not be judged"? does not mean that salavation follows or is a reward for not judging. Rather it serves to convict the unsaved reader because in the flesh, a person cannot stop judging others more harshly than he judges himself. For the regenerated it is a reminder to allow the spirit to retain dominace since it is only the spirit that cannot sin.

  Likewise the phrase, "eternal life being (inner) knowledge of the Father and/or love" that Nark also refers to is an encouragement for the regenerated person to stop pushing the spirit away but rather to let him have his way. The flesh is of no use at all for living a life characterized by love. Can a person know God through the mind? Not intimately. He is only fully know through the spirit. It is a living dynamic "knowing". We don't have God's mind but we have the mind of Christ through the spirit.

  "those who want to save their life/soul will lose it, and those who lose their life/soul for my sake will find it"... shows the harmony of the previous facets above. The normal ways that a person goes about acheiving success in normal endeavors are a waste of time when it comes to life with God. You must surrender to acheive victory. Then, the new life characterized by less sin, and dominance of the spirit is a work of God not of the human.....it's all a gift that starts with "losing your life".
• 

  Narkissos

  LOL, great demonstration that reading non-Pauline texts through Pauline/Protestant lens makes them about as painful as the average Watchtower study...

  When the Matthean Jesus says "just do it," that must actually mean "it can't be done unless you first acknowledge me as Saviour and Lord, and then you are saved whether you do it or not".

  I'm sure there is also a Protestant way to read the conclusion

  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
  "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell--and great was its fall!"
• 

  Terry

  1. If God has a perfect, righteous standard; he cannot "forgive" imperfection without violating that standard.

  2.If God extends "mercy" it constitutes relaxing a perfect judgement and lowering His standard.

  3.If man "deserves" death; he deserves death. The "deserves" has to be from a certain point of view which is either right or it is wrong. To ignore what man "deserves" is to destroy the means by which one measures right and wrong.

  In view of the above:

  Man is what he is and God has a choice about how to view that and how to act in regard to man. All judgement is, in the final analysis, God's opinion. If God has a basis for his opinion it cannot be both correct, true, righteous and also completely suspended at the same time.

  Salavation simply makes no sense.