Which school of thought is right about How long were the Israelite's in Egypt 215 or 430 years?

by terrypike 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • terrypike
    terrypike

    A lot is out there about how long the Israelite's were in Egypt which can be devided into two schools of thought, those for Bishop Ushers 215 model or the Ex 12: model which stays faithful to the 430 years to the very day Ex 12:41 the Israelite's left Egypt.

    Historically the dispute goes back a long way at least to the time of Jophesus who advocated the view that the Isarelites were in Canaan before they entered Egypt true enough when taken at face value, but look more closely at what the Bible says about when Jacobs name was changed to Israel and then ask the question is there any evidence in the Bible that Israel was used for the decendent's of Abram, Isaac or Jacob before God changed the name of 97 year old Jacob to Israel? A JW I invited to research this confirmed none could be found so that done it remains to look again at the definitions 'decendents' and 'Israelite's' to further clarify.

    The 400 years affliction as in Gen 15: speaks of the decendents of Abram only, nowhere does it say anything about the Israelites, Ex 12: on the other hand refers to the Israelite's who came out of Egypt 430 years to the very day and says nothing about the decendent's of Abram so Ex 12: is referring to 'Israel' the decendent's of Jacob not the decendent's of Abram.

    Consider here that Isaac the first born of the line of the promise and a decendent of Abraham, died 180 years of age never having set foot in Egypt, 10 years before 130 year old Jacob/Israel entered to reunite the tribal family's as one people, so by no stretch of the imagination can Isaac be confused with the Israelite's as is so easy to do when the Ex 12: 430 year timeline is tied back to the days of Abraham as is advocated by the Bishop Usher model that argues the Israelite's were only in Egypt 215 years.

    Gal 3: can be a problem only when read in isolation of other texts, use the same procedure as you would if someone said there was a contradiction with the gospels saying different things and ask them to read all four gospels to get the full picture, like wise with Gal 3: which appears to be saying, by itself, that there are only 430 years between the circumcision covenant and the law covenant , read Gen 47: and acts 7: to get a more complete picture of what Paul has not said about 130 year old Jacob's entry into Egypt in the second year of famine.

    To get the age of Jacob start with 30 year old Josephs age when he stood before the ruler of Egypt and add the 9 year total of 7 years plenty plus two years famine which makes Joseph 39, then take Josephs 39 years off the age of 130 year old Jacob to get 91 the age of Jacob when Joseph is born as Jacob completes his 7 years work with Laban for Rachael.

    Jacob then agreed to work on for the beasts and he confirms he had worked a total of 20 years when Laban caught up with him: 7 for Leah, 7 for Rachael, and 6 for the beasts.Gen 31:38-41.

    The key question when talking with JW's is how old was Jacob when his name was changed, ask the questions and let them confirm from the book they trust what it really teaches.

    Terry

  • Witness My Fury
  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus
    Is all made up. Read more books
  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Hi Terry, welcome...I'm new here myself.

    According to Egyptian records the Israelites never were in their land en masse. Since the land of the Canaan was near Egypt, for generations they had sought work as paid labourers or went to market their meat or olives at Goshen in the north east .

    It must be remembered that the Israelites lived very much in the political and economic shadow of their neighbour. Egypt influenced almost everything they did and believed (and therefore the Bible too). There had been a time when Canaanite (Semite) influence had been present in Egypt during the Hyksos period but this was back in the early Bronze Age before the Israelites or Jews arose and it seems that the biblical captivity and Exodus stories are a folk memory reworking of this earlier event. The story was vital propaganda to Judaic nationalism since it upholds symbolically the nation’s escape from Egyptian authority.

    But it isn’t a true story!

    (See The Bible Unearthed by I.Finklestein and N.A.Silberman 2002 Touchstone. chap.2 Did the Exodus happen?)

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent
    Half bananaa day ago
    According to Egyptian records the Israelites never were in their land en masse. Since the land of the Canaan was near Egypt, for generations they had sought work as paid labourers or went to market their meat or olives at Goshen in the north east .
    It must be remembered that the Israelites lived very much in the political and economic shadow of their neighbour. Egypt influenced almost everything they did and believed (and therefore the Bible too). There had been a time when Canaanite (Semite) influence had been present in Egypt during the Hyksos period but this was back in the early Bronze Age before the Israelites or Jews arose and it seems that the biblical captivity and Exodus stories are a folk memory reworking of this earlier event. The story was vital propaganda to Judaic nationalism since it upholds symbolically the nation’s escape from Egyptian authority.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To add to Half banana's comments, consider the areas controlled by the Egyptians at various times in world history:

    (Being very busy at the moment-New semester and all that!!! grin! - I've just grabbed these maps off the web, follow them up if you really want to understand that the Bible is just Israelite/Jewish nationalist stories (propaganda) used to explain why they (who had the only true god) were always being defeated by other nations (who all had false gods) ).

    Note: 15th Century BCE

    Note: and down to the 12th century BCE.>

    The two important empires down to the Battle of Kadesh (circa 1274 BCE)>


    The Battle of Kadesh (also Qadesh) took place between the forces of the Egyptian Empire under Ramesses II and the Hittite Empire under Muwatalli II at the city of Kadesh on the Orontes River, in what is now Syria.[10]
    The battle is generally dated to 1274 BC,[11] and is the earliest battle in recorded history for which details of tactics and formations are known.[12] It was probably the largest chariot battle ever fought, involving perhaps 5,000–6,000 chariots

    Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh

    Ramses II at Kadesh.jpg

    Ramesses atop chariot, at the battle of Kadesh. (A Relief inside his Abu Simbel temple.)


    The Assyrian Empire *824 BCE to 625 BCE



  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy
    They were never there, the city they supposedly built Pithom or Goshen wasn't even named that until centuries later. Also the use of burnt bricks, these cities along with everything else stone slabs were used so no burnt bricks.
  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated
    The exodus was not part of jewish traditrion until AFTER 400 BCE .. we have records from that time of jews in Egyot that were very henotheistic...
  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    howTheBibleWasCreated - "...we have records from that time of Jews in Egyot that were very henotheistic..."

    Oops; for a second, I thought you'd written "hedonistic"?

  • terrypike
    terrypike

    Thanks for the maps and all the other contributions that will i am sure be very useful when i have time to study them, one line of research is now calling me back to the Bible so i have to move on to clarify my understanding of its basic message which this site appears to have no interest in.

    Thanks Terry

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Ok. Bye.

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