Im afraid that we have been sold a story from the govt similar to the story we were told by the religions.
People know you can control adults by telling them a story they believe when young.
People also know you can control young adults and older adults through peer pressure (such as in a crowded stadium or school auditorium.
I always wondered why there were never any flag salutes at concert performances or before the orchestra played. (Maybe they did in Nazi Germany and still do in similar govts)
(Maybe "THEY" determined that artists and writers who attended these gatherings were too "leftist" to control with pledges of allegiance.
I think to question the pledge and its origins is very healthy. If you read the history of this country, it was very important that this country and its laws be separate from religion and worship. The early colonies were imprisoned under religious governors who served a mix of religion and law.
This country wont last unless it is loved. But it also wont last unless it is loveable. The laws must be good for all the people and bring people happiness and security. There must not be those good citizens who are left bereft and deprived of justice or sustenance. Justice and freedom and security for everyone! There must continue to be a separation of church and state and a constant vigilance to keep it so.
I thought it was very telling when the writers of the pledge thought to change the wording regarding freedom and equality because they realized it conflicted with how the country was treating its black population!!!! Very telling indeed! Can we entrust our very personal pledges to this kind of bigot?
If I have learned anything from escaping a cult is this; people are easily mislead down a daisy trail unless they are using critical thinking. And it could cost them their life.
All that said, I did say the pledge since leaving the JWs. It took me quite by surprise during a town parade I attended. I wanted to feel what it was like to participate fully. So I put my hand to my heart and recited the old solemn words.No one seemed to care if I participated or not. Incidentally my neverbeenaJW patriotic husband did not pledge! Go figure!
But strangely I stood there and heard the pledging of the crowd and my own voice and looked out over the town to the hills and the sky above and thought of my father....WWII vet and army medic who served for ten years his country, the man who kicked me out of his house the night after my baptism as a JW. I thought of his service and the many pictures he brought back from the war of Auschweitz and other camps he and his men entered the day the Nazis fled. There they were, naked emaciated Jewish men,(maybe witnesses too) standing there holding hands over private parts, standing there numb from starvation and cruel treatment. My father and men like him were real heroes who put down the advances of Hitler. I thought, who am I to question and ridicule patriotism? I thought, maybe I am a fool, that maybe patriotism towards a good country is good! Maybe the witnesses poisoned me against my own country! Yes, maybe there are times to fight to protect your beautiful country, your homeland!
So I continued to pledge while thinking all these things........"with liberty and justice for all"
my first pledge of allegiance
by BlackSwan of Memphis 26 Replies latest jw friends
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anewme
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Star Moore
Another milestone.. Black Swan:
For me though, no flag saluted under the evils of W. I won't salute again until Jesus rules.
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BlackSwan of Memphis
Wow look at all these replies.
Hm this is something I've thought a lot about today. And the more that I have thought about it, the more upset I am.
Star: I don't think I'll be salutin or pledgin my allegiance for awhile, so I'll wait with ya
Anewme:
People also know you can control young adults and older adults through peer pressure (such as in a crowded stadium or school auditorium.
This is the problem. The peer pressure used to get people to do what you want is just wrong. And imho, this particular teacher, does Not understand or care that a 5 year old would Only pledge because of the pressure to be like his or her peers.
I think to question the pledge and its origins is very healthy. If you read the history of this country, it was very important that this country and its laws be separate from religion and worship. The early colonies were imprisoned under religious governors who served a mix of religion and law.
Further, a little known fact: The part about One Nation...yeah, well, the Under God part was added in the 50's. It was Not a part of the original pledge. The original pledge read like this:
I pledgeallegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all
Interesting huh? Here's a wiki link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
The laws must be good for all the people and bring people happiness and security. There must not be those good citizens who are left bereft and deprived of justice or sustenance. Justice and freedom and security for everyone! There must continue to be a separation of church and state and a constant vigilance to keep it so.
I wholeheartedly agree with this!
Yes, maybe there are times to fight to protect your beautiful country, your homeland!
I must agree to this. Of course it is right to fight and protect one's country, in the same sense that I would protect my family. The question will be before every war or battle, is this battle to protect us, to defend us or is this battle on the offensive?
Wow, BSoM! This past weekend was my first pledge of allegiance, too!
I got it all except "indivisible" ... I probably forgot that one since it is pretty divided.
Hey the timing!
It is pretty divided? I take it you are referring to the One Nation under G-D
I still can't say the pledge....not for any religious reason, though...just because I don't support the policies of the current administration.
<<nods head>> I understand.
I was at a PTA meeting last month, and my son's class sang the Star Spangled Banner. I could not imagine making him sit out from the rest of the class. I had to, but it's funny I still know all of the words. =-)
And herein lies the problem! I can see an adult choosing to or not to recite the pledge. But by integrating it into a classroom, one puts a child in the position to be "different". I would think, I would hope, that a teacher who educates small children could understand the impact this would have on a kid. It tells me more about the teacher then anything else.
it's too bad they make children recite that tripe.
hmph, I know. After I signed off last night, I trudged upstairs thinking of.... You. Something you said not long ago about renouncing your Canadian citizenship. Hm, I heartily announced to my husband I renounce my American citizenship. I am a citizen of planet earth and you may call me Blackswan of Red Bird. (Red Bird is a play on words started by the four year old that is being educated by the teacher in question. Red Bird is a mispronounciation of our hometown, but interestingly I think better describes where we live) anyhooooo
While the US pledge reads "to the flag of the United States of America," the more important part, im my mind is the following, "and to the republic for which it stands, one nation..."
The NATION is the people, and I feel, the ideals by which they live. The government is simply the horrible abomination of employees hired by the nation to handle the affairs of the people. Sadly, in this nation, the government has become bloated, self-serving and self-assuming. As originally designed, the government was designed to be as small as necessary to manage the peoples needs of security and basic welfare.
I proudly pledge my allegiance to the NATION, and I tolerate the government that we have collectively hired, despite their frequent poor performance. This nation is worthy of my allegiance as it is one of the few places that I am free to think and do as I wish. (Within reason, I know...)
Well that middle part explains pretty well, but not completely why I just can't do it. But hey, each their own and that is the great thing about where we live. Each can choose for themself. And further that is the great thing about not being a jw any longer.
I still don't say it. I do stand, and put my hand on my heart, but I let everyone else say it. Just feels funny after a lifetime of not saying it.
Maybe someday. I do love my country.
See, I just can't get a handle on the notion of loving my country. I know, I know, it's unpatriotic and in many ways I will admit it is coming from the viewpoint of a person who has not had to fight for the freedoms she enjoys. I love my kids, I love my husband. I love the earth and try to show it. Do I love this country? Hm, I gotta think about this.
No other country pleges allegiance to any flags. As for greens comment, it (the flag) "stands for freedom justice"and whatever else. It's really hard to detect sarcasim on a forum..are you being sarcastic with the freedom justice bit? I hope so...
Interesting you say that. The teacher says that the red stands for bravery. Hm, lately I tend to think that the red stands for blood. <<shrugs>> Just my opinion and I know many would disagree.
I haven't been a JW for over 20 years, but have never recited the pledge of allegiance - it just doesn't come up anywhere I go I guess. However, I do sing the "Star Spangled Banner" - not for any patriotic reason - I just like to sing it.
Lol, I can relate to this. With hockey season in session, we have a great local singer, Karen Newman who does the anthem. I tend to sing along to see if I can hit that Really High note. I can't.
I think that reciting a pledge isn't likely to prove anyone's loyalty
Nor does it prove patriotism. I would think that if one wants to really prove, so to speak, their patriotism, there are much better ways then reciting a pledge. imho
It's a matter of indoctrinating young people, gotta make them repeat things a few thousand times until they think they believe it.
This is a concern to me as a parent. A 5 year old doesn't even understand the word allegiance, let alone can they barely say it. Why do this to them? The only reason I can think is indoctrination. Today, I have been thinking of this quite a bit. I am bothered. I am bothered that when the teacher had the choice and she knows that there are jw kids out there, she has dealt with them before, she consciously Chooses to do this. I just don't understand. These kids are on the brink of dealing with some serious peer issues. Sure, lets add one more thing. And for what? To teach them patriotism? It isn't her place, it's the parents.
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Who are you?
This is a concern to me as a parent. A 5 year old doesn't even understand the word allegiance, let alone can they barely say it. Why do this to them? The only reason I can think is indoctrination. Today, I have been thinking of this quite a bit. I am bothered. I am bothered that when the teacher had the choice and she knows that there are jw kids out there, she has dealt with them before, she consciously Chooses to do this. I just don't understand. These kids are on the brink of dealing with some serious peer issues. Sure, lets add one more thing. And for what? To teach them patriotism? It isn't her place, it's the parents.
It is interesting to hear a viewpoint from a JW, because I always thought the WTS was using the JW children for all of the reasons that you mention. They use little kids to fight an adults battle. Since singing the Pledge of Allegience is basically a grade school function,( I can't remember singing it past 6th grade) the JW kids are set apart by the WTS for their own selfish reasons.
This isn't a US government vs. the JW's issue, the debate has been ongoing whether it should be used or not since the 50's with many groups. In the end, it is always decided in the way that your last line touches on, which is keep the tradition, knowing that parents can ultimately share with the student, their own belief system.
So in other schools the kids will stand up out of respect, but not say the pledge. That seems to me to be a balanced approach.
Why the JW's must make a big deal about it....well consider the source. I'd say their 5 days a week for life indoctrination process is a little more intense than saying a 30 second pledge of allegience for the first few years of grade school, at an age that most kids don't really know what they are repeating.
I've enjoyed reading all the comments.
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anewme
I too have thought about this topic all day. Its not everyday I grow a little, but today I did. All the posting, all the topics, posts and comments I read today on JWD. Some I agreed with, some I didnt. But I learned more from the comments I did not agree with. Thats the comfort zone where no growth occurs, no learning. But today I was forced to face something.
In our lives we have the opportunity to stand for what we believe in or live a lie and promote the lies.
We must ask ourselves WHAT DO I BELIEVE IN? Apart from what others believe strongly, WHAT DO I BELIEVE IN?
WOW! I REALIZED HOW MUCH OF MY BELIEFS ARE BORROWED FROM OTHER SOURCES, FROM MY PARENTS, MY TEACHERS, MY RELIGION, MY COUNTRY. BUT WHAT DO I BELIEVE IN? WHAT ARE MY PRINCIPLES? WHAT WOULD I DIE FOR? WHAT WOULD I PLEDGE TO? WHO AND WHAT DO I RESPECT?
AFTER MUCH THOUGHT I AM A WOMAN FOR THE WORLD, THE EARTH AS A WHOLE.
I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO A UNITED EARTH, ONE PEOPLE, UNITED, EQUAL, PEACEFUL, FREE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.
There is more but I will save it for a topic of my own.
Anewme -
onlycurious
I found this thread to be very interesting. I have grown up saying the pledge and never really throught much about it until some law suits were headlined on the new regarding "One Nation Under God..."
Now, I get a little emotional about this whole ordeal. The fact that we still are even allowed to say "God" is short lived.
After 9/11, I have found myself to be a lot more patriotic than ever before. I don't believe there is a single American out there that can't remember where they were when they first heard about this tragic event. It profoundly impacte me. I'm not even necessarily saying I support the war, I am just saying that I am proud to be a part of this wonderful country we live in and am thankful for all the men and women who have given their lives for our freedom.
Sure, the freedom today is VERY different than the freedoms our parents enjoyed. Nevertheless, we have a lot more freedoms than many countries these days and I appreciate living here.
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HAL9000
Regarding whether other countries have this practice, I have distinct memories of having to recite to following (or something like it) while I was in primary school (years 1-6) in the 1960's.
It went "I honour my Queen, I serve my country, I salute my flag" or something similar. I don't know if it is still practiced here or when it stopped.
h9k