Is my understanding correct?
1. To arrive at 1874 for Christ’s Parousia, CTR employed time parallels from the Scriptures and measurements from the Great Pyramid.
2. CTR used a 2520-year timeframe to arrive at October 1914 for the end of the “Gentile Times”.
3. CTR therefore did not have the Parousia taking place at the end of the Gentile Times.
4. The WTS/GB moved the Parousia from 1874 to 1914 because they moved the end of the Millennium forwards from 1872 by about 100 years.
5. Today, the WTS/GB uses the 2520-year timeframe only to arrive at October 1914 for the end of the “Gentile Times”.
6. Today, the WTS/GB does not use any timeframe from prophecies in Scripture to calculate that the Parousia also occurred in October 1914.
Is my understanding correct?
by Doug Mason 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Doug Mason
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greendawn
I am not sure about all the points you raise but Russell did not calculate the 1874 and 1914 dates but got them from the adventists and more specifically from Barbour. He talked of a so called invisible presence in 1874 and a visible one in 1914. Russell used the pyramids to "confirm" those dates. When 1914 failed later Rutehrford moved the "invisible" presence to 1914 and the visible to various future dates which all failed. The dubs are still playing with the date of the visible return nearly 100 years after 1914. People of assine intelligence will for ever chase the carrot (paradise earth + eternal life) at the end of the stick and the GB knows that well.
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OnTheWayOut
Your questions are hard to answer, because WTS wants to cloud the issue, trying to make
us think the answers are straightforward, that they always said "1914" for the end of the
Gentile times and for Jesus' invisible presence. I tried to look in more recent literature for the
straight answer to your questions.***
w935/1p.11par.3SheddingLightonChrist’sPresence***3
So Jehovah’s people of the 19th century correctly understood that the pa·rou·si´a of Christ would be an invisible one. They had also come to an understanding that the end of the Gentile Times would occur in the autumn of 1914. As spiritual enlightenment progressed, they later understood that Jesus Christ was enthroned in heaven as King of the Kingdom in that same year, 1914.—Proverbs 4:18; Daniel 7:13, 14; Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:15.***
w9210/1 p.16TheMessiah’sPresenceandHisRule***7
Undoubtedly, the pa·rou·si´a is not literally visible to human eyes. If it were, why would Jesus spend so much time, as we shall see, giving his followers a sign to help them to discern this presence? However, when Christ comes to destroy Satan’s world system, the fact of his presence will be overwhelmingly manifest to all. It is then that "every eye will see him." Even Jesus’ opponents will be able to discern, to their dismay, that Christ’s reign is real.—See Matthew 24:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 1:5, 6.When
DoesItBegin?Both these articles simply go on after this to the supposed "sign" that Jesus gave, ignoring the fact that he first said
"Let nobody deceive you..... (after listing wars, famine, earthquakes) ... The end is not yet."So the math for the "parousia" is not used often. It is used to establish the end of the Gentile Times, then
WW One is proof that they were right all along- even though they were not. Too bad WW One happened in 1914. -
OnTheWayOut
The INSIGHT book, under "Presence" spends considerable time trying to be convincing that
"Parousia" is an invisible presence, then switches to the events of the time proving it happened.***
it-2pp. 678-679 Presence***Events
marking his presence. Jesus had promised to be with his followers in their meeting together (Mt 18:20), and he also assured them that he would be ‘with them’ in their discipling work "all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Mt 28:19, 20) The pa·rou·si´a of Matthew 24:3 and related texts, of course, must signify something beyond this. It clearly relates to a special presence, one involving and affecting all earth’s inhabitants and inseparably connected with Jesus’ expression of full authority as King anointed by God. -
Doug Mason
Dear OTWO,
Yes, I know my question looks simple on the surface but I find the WTS position regarding "1914" quite fuzzy. (I have never been a JW so I thought my post might bring me some help.)
I am trying to draw a picture that shows the foundation of the Governing Body's authority. So I have gone up the line working from the 607 BCE "Downfall of God's Messianic Kingdom", through the "2520 years" up to the "1914 CE end of the Gentile Times".
I need to see whether the Parousia is part of the foundation for their authority. When the WTS speaks about Jesus as "King in 1914" I presume this is in relationship to the "Gentile Times", not to the "Parousia". The "Parousia" is not the same as the end of the "Gentile Times", and their relationship in WTS history has been fluid.
The covers of Barbour's magazine suggest to me that the date of 1874 was derived using historic paralelisms, whereas but the date for the 1914 Parousia does not appear to be. (Hence their reliance on the "sign" even though Jesus was warning AGAINST listening to people pointing to wars, etc.!) The restoration of the Kingdom in 1914 is a calculated date.
Doug -
Zico
Doug, Blondie taught me yesterday that Russell and Rutherford believed Jesus 'parousia' began in 1874, his rulership as king began in 1878, and that 1914 was the end of the gentile times. Knorr and Franz changed all this so everything applied to 1914, after Rutherford's death, in 1943.
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OnTheWayOut
The WTS ties the end of the Gentile times together with the Parousia, simply by stating in the Reasoning Book (one of the best sources to simplify their teachings) that rulership by men was to be over and given to Christ:
*** rs p. 95 - p. 97 Dates ***
Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that God’s Kingdom was established in 1914?
Two lines of evidence point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy. Here we will consider the chronology. For fulfillment of prophecy, see the main heading “Last Days.”
Read Daniel 4:1-17. Verses 20-37 show that this prophecy had a fulfillment upon Nebuchadnezzar. But it also has a larger fulfillment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream that God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar deals with the Kingdom of God and God’s promise to give it “to the one whom he wants to . . . even the lowliest one of mankind.” The entire Bible shows that Jehovah’s purpose is for his own Son, Jesus Christ, to rule as His representative over mankind. (Ps. 2:1-8; Dan. 7:13, 14; 1 Cor. 15:23-25; Rev. 11:15; 12:10) The Bible’s description of Jesus shows that he was indeed “the lowliest one of mankind.” (Phil. 2:7, 8; Matt. 11:28-30) The prophetic dream, then, points to the time when Jehovah would give rulership over mankind to his own Son.
What was to happen in the meantime? Rulership over mankind, as represented by the tree and its rootstock, would have “the heart of a beast.” (Dan. 4:16) The history of mankind would be dominated by governments that displayed the characteristics of wild beasts. In modern times, the bear is commonly used to represent Russia; the eagle, the United States; the lion, Britain; the dragon, China. The Bible also uses wild beasts as symbols of world governments and of the entire global system of human rulership under the influence of Satan. (Dan. 7:2-8, 17, 23; 8:20-22; Rev. 13:1, 2) As Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.
For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.
When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone. By that time the Jewish governor, Gedaliah, who had been left in charge by the Babylonians, had been assassinated, and the remaining Jews had fled to Egypt. (Jeremiah, chapters 40-43) Reliable Bible chronology indicates that this took place 70 years before 537 B.C.E., the year in which the Jews returned from captivity; that is, it took place by early October of 607 B.C.E. (Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:2; for further details, see the book “Let Your Kingdom Come,” pages 186-189.)
How, then, is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2,520 years from early October of 607 B.C.E. brings us to early October of 1914 C.E., as shown on the chart.
CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14.
Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? After Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons were hurled out of heaven and down to the earth. (Rev. 12:12) Christ as King did not immediately proceed to destroy all who refused to acknowledge Jehovah’s sovereignty and himself as the Messiah. Instead, as he had foretold, a global preaching work was to be done. (Matt. 24:14) As King he would direct a dividing of peoples of all nations, those proving to be righteous being granted the prospect of everlasting life, and the wicked being consigned to everlasting cutting-off in death. (Matt. 25:31-46) In the meantime, the very difficult conditions foretold for “the last days” would prevail. As shown under the heading “Last Days,” those events have been clearly in evidence since 1914. Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all the things foretold will occur, including the “great tribulation” in which the present wicked world will end.—Matt. 24:21, 22, 34. -
OnTheWayOut
Also, in the Reasoning book under DATES- they examine each part of the sign, giving more weight
to the history of actual events than to any Biblical proof. What they do is this- They say that the
Bible prophetically points to 1914 for [ALL OF THEIR END TIME DOCTRINE'S FULFILLMENT] but
they throw in some scriptures from Daniel and a few other OT references, then they switch to NT
stuff about the "sign" ignoring Jesus warning about being misled.This is placed after examining each individually- wars, food shortages, earthquakes, pestilence,
lawlessness, fear, persecution of Christ's followers, good news preached worldwide:***
rsp.239 Last Days ***Why
do Jehovah’s Witnesses say that it was in 1914 that "the last days" began?The year 1914 is marked by Bible prophecy. For details regarding the chronology, see pages 95-97, under the main heading "Dates." The correctness of the date is shown by the fact that world conditions foretold to mark this time period have come to pass since 1914 exactly as foretold. The facts set out above illustrate this.
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garybuss
Russell didn't come up with 1914, the Second Adventists did. See the work of Nelson Barbour in the thesis called "Three Worlds". It's free on line for reading enjoyment.
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beginnersmind
Sorry i dont know how to insert a quote in here (or paragraphs if my last post are to go by) so i'll just have to re-type it. OTWO you write ....supposed sign that jesus gave, ignoring the fact that he first said "Let nobody deceive you...(after listing wars, famines, earthquakes).... the end is not yet." Could you elaborate on what your trying to say here? Are you saying when Jesus mentions wars, famines & eathquakes they arent a sign for the last days as such, just if someone says they are dont believe them?
Didnt everything in these verses get fullfilled by 70AD? Personally speaking i have a problem with 1914, last days & JW's since the 'new light' in 1995. I could take the leap of faith in it having a second fullfillment in our day but when the generation changed i started having doubts. I mean if all these signs were to be transported to our day then shudnt they all have the same fullfillment ie if the literal generation saw all the signs take place up to 70AD then the literal generation now should see it? I couldnt see how you could still stick with that prophecy for this time period but then say it has a different meaning to the original fullfillment. Is that unreasonable? I thought to myself maybe its because Jesus meant it to apply in the 1st century and only then. There is no second and major fullfillment of it. Ive not settled on that thought though as im still reasoning evrything out and it might take some time!