Great Crowd Appeared in 1930's........or did it?

by drew sagan 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    The basic premise for this post came from some comments TD made in a thread many months ago. (Read the full thread here : link)

    The specific point I wanted to discuss is the 'Great Crowd' theology the WTS puts forth, especially the timeline of events it presents as accurate.

    As clearly stated in their publications time and time again the claim is made that the great crowd appeared in the 1930's. Here are some examples:

    *** w01 1/15 p. 19 Keep in Step With Jehovah’s Organization ***

    12 Prior to the 1930’s, many of God’s people were somewhat uncertain about their hope for future life. Some had thoughts about heavenly life but were fascinated by Bible teachings about a paradise earth. At the Washington, D.C., convention in 1935, it was thrilling to learn that the great multitude, or great crowd, of Revelation chapter 7 is a class with an earthly hope. Since then, the gathering of the great crowd has moved ahead with ever greater momentum. Are we not thankful that the identity of the great crowd is no mystery to us? The reality of people being gathered in great numbers from all nations, tribes, and tongues motivates us to quicken our step as we keep pace with Jehovah’s organization.


    Many quotes are like this. They state that the great crowd began to be gathered at this time, but not that it actually existed at this time. Other quotes though are much more specific. This one taken from the Daniel book shows that historical events during the 1930's and 40's had the full participation from the great crowd:

    *** dp chap. 10 pp. 178-179 Who Can Stand Against the Prince of Princes? ***

    28 As we have noted, during the closing months of World War II, Jehovah’s Witnesses reaffirmed their determination to magnify God’s rulership by serving him as a theocratic organization. It was with this objective that the rearrangement of their work and governing structure was initiated in 1944. In fact, The Watchtower of October 15, 1944, contained an article entitled “Organized for Final Work.” It and other service-oriented articles of the same period indicated that the 2,300 days had ended and that “the holy place” was again in its “right condition.” 29 The enemy’s vicious attempts to desolate and destroy “the holy place” had failed completely. Indeed, the remaining “holy ones” on earth, along with their companions of the “great crowd,” had come off victorious. (Revelation 7:9) And the sanctuary, in its rightful theocratic state, now continues to render sacred service to Jehovah.


    this quote follows in the same fashion:

    *** re chap. 20 pp. 120-122 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***

    5 The understanding of Revelation 7:9-17 was now about to burst forth in all its sparkling brilliance! (Psalm 97:11) The Watchtower magazine had repeatedly expressed the hope that a convention scheduled for May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., would be “a real comfort and benefit” to those pictured by Jehonadab. That it proved to be! In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9. At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: “Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?” As a large part of the audience stood up, the president declared: “Behold! The great multitude!” There was a hush, followed by thunderous cheering. How elated was the John class—and also the Jehonadab group! On the following day, 840 new Witnesses were baptized, most of these professing to be of that great crowd.



    Many JWs when asked 'When did the great crowd appear' would say something about the 1930's and the events surrounding the 'flashes of light' that took place during this time. They would say this is when the correct understanding was revealed to Jehovah's people. Chapter 20 of the Revelation Climax book is quite descriptive in explaining all of this stuff, using grandiose language to describe the 'thrilling' events.

    There is just one problem with all of this, the basic fact that (according to my understanding) one actually has to pass through Armageddon in order to be part of the great crowd. This is what Rutherford taught and present truth of the times comes through in the Revelation book, just one paragraph before the previous quote mentioned:

    *** re chap. 20 p. 120 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***

    4 Some years later, in 1931, Vindication, Book One, discussed Ezekiel chapter 9, identifying those persons marked on the forehead for preservation at the world’s end as the sheep of the above parable. Vindication, Book Three, released in 1932, described the upright heart attitude of the non-Israelite man Jehonadab, who joined Israel’s anointed King Jehu in his chariot and went along to see Jehu’s zeal in executing false religionists. (2 Kings 10:15-17) The book commented: “Jehonadab represented or foreshadowed that class of people now on the earth during the time that the Jehu work [of declaring Jehovah’s judgments] is in progress who are of good will, are out of harmony with Satan’s organization, who take their stand on the side of righteousness, and are the ones whom the Lord will preserve during the time of Armageddon, take them through that trouble, and give them everlasting life on the earth. These constitute the ‘sheep’ class.” In 1934 The Watchtower made it clear that these Christians with earthly hopes should make a dedication to Jehovah and be baptized. The light regarding this earthly class was shining ever brighter.—Proverbs 4:18.


    The book of Revelation is quite clear that this group of people came out of the great tribulation:

    (Revelation 7:13-14) 13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    And even more is described later in the chapter under the heading "The Great Crowd Makes Its Appearance".

    So did the great crowd really appear in the 1930's if those alive then who claimed to be of this class do not live through the great tribulation? How can people who are part of the 'great crowd' not pass through the great tribulation? It seems to me that eventually there will come a point when there will no longer be any original members of the group that claimed to be of the great crowd. So the question remains, if they are no longer part of this group now, where they ever???

    I have been unable to locate anything in the publications that gives an answer to this. It seems that the WTS treats the Great Crowd like that of the 'Generation' of 1914. It tends to view the Great Crowd as an organic group that is ever growing, but not limited to the individuals who are a part of it. This would mean that they (those of the 1930's) where possibly part of the great crowd while they where alive, but then they 'passed the torch' on to the next generation. When they died they missed out on being part of the great crowd, but had a part in it. I'm not saying this is the way the WTS teaches it, instead this seems to be the way the doctrine is implied in their literature.

    So to me it seems that the WTS has built up a very loose fitting and expandable idea of what the Great Crowd is. Because of this most JWs simply believe that it is the group of active JWs on earth at any time past the 1930s. But this gives problems to the fact that the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation.

    But here is the real kicker. I have heard JWs say that you are not part of the great crowd if you die before Armageddon, but I have not been able to find this in the literature. I think this may have been one of those random CO facts that gets spread around.

    If this is the way JWs really do view the great crowd then that means that the end must come (according to their theology) before those people from the 1930's all die away. It's like the generation doctrine all over again. Since a specific quality of the great crowd is surviving Armageddon, and the great crowd appeared in the 1930's then those people have to be here for the end. Any deviation from this brings is a sea of contradictions and problems. That is why it seems the WTS has taken no position on the matter (as far as I can tell). Since it no longer wants to push any date related teachings it is simply letting this go unanswered. They simply treat it as if this hard to follow back asswards explanation doesn't exists and instead give the JWs some really general material that stays miles away from the issues at hand.

    The last point to consider is that this actually means there are more than two classes of christians according to their theology. This would include:

    1. Those who died before Christ and will be resurrected in the future
    2. Those anointed who died after Christ and went to heaven 1914 and beyond
    3. Those who died after Christ with no knowledge of Jehovah's Purposes and will be resurrected in the future (can be mixed with group 1, but not really)
    4. Those of the other sheep (Great Crowd) that died before the Great Tribulation (again, could be with group 1 & 2, but are also kind of in a group of their own)
    5. The Great Crowd that lives through the Great Tribulation.

    To show that the WTS kind of makes it seems like group 3 actually is a little different , look at this quote:

    *** w95 2/15 p. 12 There Will Be a Resurrection of the Righteous ***

    15 That resurrection is described at Revelation chapter 20, verse 13, in these words: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.” Thus, during Jehovah’s great thousand-year Judgment Day, all those in God’s memory will be resurrected—both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 17:31) How much better, though, it will be for the righteous! They have already lived lives of faith. They already have a close relationship with Jehovah and confidence in the outworking of his purposes. Righteous witnesses from before the Christian Era will awaken from death eager to learn how the promises of Jehovah regarding the Seed were fulfilled. (1 Peter 1:10-12) Those of the other sheep whom Jehovah views as righteous in our day will come forth from the grave eager to behold the Paradise earth that they spoke about when they declared the good news in this system of things. What a joyful time that will be!



    So what do you think? Have I made a mistake in these assumptions, or is this a gaping hole in their theology? Any quotes and research you have done that can add to this would be much appreciated!

    -Drew

  • heathen
    heathen

    yah they are pretty screwy on that. They even created dogma that those that die prior to the GT and were JW will be resurrected during the millenial reign. Now how many leaps of faith do you have to make to conclude that? There's only 2 resurrection according to jesus ,one is for the martyrs or 144k saints the other is for everybody else that ever lived and it happens after the millenial reign. There certainly are not millions living today from the 1930's who are j-dubs , so for certain that was a false prophesy from Rutherford when he said they would never die.

  • cyberguy
    cyberguy

    Drew,

    You make a good point that as time goes on a large number of the “great crowd” will have passed away. Of course, their argument will be that these are really “other sheep” and are only of the “great crowd” when they actually become survivors of the Great Tribulation.

    This two class system isn’t anything new, because from the beginning this group was separated as a secondary heavenly class, the door being shut in 1914 (if I recall correctly, and some other dates too), until it was bumped to circa 1935.

    The main problem here is that they believe that the 144,000 is a literal number, that the number started to be fulfilled from the 1st century onward, and because of this position, they needed to account for the growing number of members. What I find very strange is that in their publications Ephesians 4 is referenced to support their argument that there is only one truth faith (Eph 4:5) but fail to recognize that vs 4 states there is only one hope! And one means one, no?

    Cyber,

    Just a side note:

    The notion that the 144,000 began to be selected in the 1st century onward does not fit the context of Rev. 7 in that the number heard was in response to a the question asked at the end of chapter 6 as to “who will stand?” Therefore, it would seem that the selection would occur just before the plagues and hence would be associated with the end-time. Furthermore, the 144,000 (in chapt 7) are located on earth; they would not need protection if they were already resurrected to heaven. Also, John only hears the number, because John (in the vision) is in heaven, before the throne of God. He could not see the 144,000 on earth. He was stationed in heaven, before God’s throne after being asked to go through an “open door” (see chapt 4) which transported him from earth to heaven. Finally, the “Great Crowd” (or Large Crowd) can be seen by John, because they are in heaven where he was. The expression “the Great Tribulation” may refer to the general “tribulation” that Christians are subject to. As we know, some have faced an untimely death due to persecution (check other translations that leave the article out). It’s my understanding that in Greek, the definite article is included when something is referenced in the past (I’m sure there are others here on this board that can explain this more fully). Therefore, there is no need to conclude that it is a specific event (the big “A”) that the “Great Crowd” goes through.

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    I think you have raised a very interesting point, Drew, and one that I missed all the years that I was in the WTS. Like me, I am sure that most WT followers use the terms "other sheep" and "great crowd" synonymously, making them refer to several generations co-existing together. Actually, as you point out there is a difference, albeit a technical one.According to the WTS's own definition, the GC must only refer to those who attended the 1935 assembly.

    At that convention in Washington DC, in 1935, those attending, and subsequent recruits of that generation, were identified as the GC. In fact as the WT of 15 Aug 1935 states: "Now we see a company that exactly fits the description given in Rev 7 concerning the Great Multitude"

    This means that those attendees of that convention had every right to expect to go through the Great Tribulation in their own lifetimes. Anyone who was 10 years old then will now be a frail 82 and anyone old enough to make a mature dedication to the WTS diktat, say 20 years old, will be 92 at least. It is obvious that the vast majority of that generation have now passed away, victims of yet another gross misrepresentation of the WTS.

    It must be remembered that to the WT leadership, truth is not an entrenched verity impervious to change, but rather is an elastic commodity, capable of being stretched, bent, and twisted into any shape that most serves the interests of the society. The WT leadership exists in its own self-made cesspool of deception and conceit, unhindered by any concern for other human beings other than themselves, and for this reason are untroubled by any inconsistency in any of their "reasoning"

    All it will take to undo any embarrasing defaults in their theology is a glib redefinition of their malleable glossary, making the GC mean whatever they want it to mean.

    Cyberguy: just a brief reference to an encounter I had with a young couple who, as WT followers were doing a street corner work. Accosting the young couple, I referred them to Eph 4:4,5 and asked them to explain to me this anomaly of the WTS actually teaching two hopes. The young lad, presumably using the kind of pliant logic that makes the WT follower unsuited to any coherent discussion, insisted that, in fact, the WTS did teach only one hope. One hope for the anointed, and one hope for the OS!! When I pointed out that his mathamatics was reminescent of what he insisted the Trinity to be, his apoplectic demeanor became apparent. Somehow to him, 1+1=1 and he considered me to be the one retarded enough not to "see" this wonderful "truth" !!

    Good post, Drew.

    Cheers

  • mia_b
    mia_b

    You know - i think i might ask my mom for my bible back!

    It seems that the WTS treats the Great Crowd like that of the 'Generation' of 1914. It tends to view the Great Crowd as an organic group that is ever growing, but not limited to the individuals who are a part of it. This would mean that they (those of the 1930's) where possibly part of the great crowd while they where alive, but then they 'passed the torch' on to the next generation. When they died they missed out on being part of the great crowd, but had a part in it. I'm not saying this is the way the WTS teaches it, instead this seems to be the way the doctrine is implied in their literature.

    So to me it seems that the WTS has built up a very loose fitting and expandable idea of what the Great Crowd is. Because of this most JWs simply believe that it is the group of active JWs on earth at any time past the 1930s. But this gives problems to the fact that the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation.

    But here is the real kicker. I have heard JWs say that you are not part of the great crowd if you die before Armageddon, but I have not been able to find this in the literature. I think this may have been one of those random CO facts that gets spread around.

    i always undrstood GC as organic - that i as non annointed was part of GC. But i just beleived whatever i was told and never looked anything up... i wonder if my mom would also give me the CD rom so that i can start?

    I've NEVER heard a jw say you're not GC if you die before armageddon but it would make sense if the GC are the ones who come out of the GT and if you're dead you can't hmmm.

    The real bummer is that if you'd died never knowing anything about the dubs u get a rez anyhow and could hav lived your life as you wanted to!

  • Perry
    Perry

    It seems to me that eventually there will come a point when there will no longer be any original members of the group that claimed to be of the great crowd. So the question remains, if they are no longer part of this group now, where they ever???

    You'll just have wait for a new "class" to be announced like the rest of us:

    In imitation of the great revealer of secrets, the annointed who finished their earthly course are now directing the organization invisibly from heaven as part of the general parousia of Christ's invisible return. Likewise, most of the Great Crowd who initially appeared on the world stage in the 1930's have also passed beyond the vail, and are now invisible to human eyes. However they are not invisible to the ever watchful servants who are now directing the world-wide work invisibly from heaven. True, they no longer report time, but they are not forgotton even though they remain unseen at the present time. So, it follows that they are still an integral part of the Great Crowd or "jonadab" class even as they are now a part of the newly revealed "pushing up daisies" class.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    This goes together with when the 'great tribulation" began. Until the early 70s, it was taught that the GT started with WW 1, and was suspended by Jehovah "for the sake of the chosen ones." Therefore, from about 1925 until 1970 there were actually members of the GC on the earth. When they pushed the GT off to the future, as the immediately introductory phase of Armageddon, then, in fact, as you say, there have been no survivors of the GT, and therefore, technically, no great crowd. I remember this as an issue in the book study, where I made that very point; it didn't fly too well.

    Insofar as the "classification" of someone who dies before Armaggedon is concerned, the following are examples:

    *** w51 5/15 p. 319 Questions from Readers ***

    However, when "TheTruthShallMakeYouFree" spoke of resurrected ones reasonably sharing in the divine mandate it did have in mind those of the "other sheep" class that might die before or during Armageddon, and it quoted John 5:27-29 (AS) to show that these who had "done good" would have an early "resurrection of life" like the faithful witnesses and prophets of ancient time, and would not have to await mankind’s later "resurrection of judgment".

    *** kc chap. 18 p. 179 The Kingdom Triumphant! ***

    13

    It is reasonable to expect that such faithful ones who endured persecution "that they might attain a better resurrection," along with integrity-keeping ones of the "other sheep" who today may die before Armageddon, would experience an early resurrection into the "new earth."

    Such persons are therefore simply "other sheep," which, of course, they always were anyway, but they don't get the additional merit badge of GC. Thus the typical expression "prospective members" came to be the default position in the publications.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Perry,

    Is that a real quote or did you just make that up???

    -Drew

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    onacruse,

    You said:

    Such persons are therefore simply "other sheep," which, of course, they always were anyway, but they don't get the additional merit badge of GC. Thus the typical expression "prospective members" came to be the default position in the publications.

    In looking back in publications from the last 10-15 years on the cd-rom I have only seen the term 'prospective members' used in referance to the anointed, not the GC. Do you have examples where it is applied to the GC?

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    drew, I gotta go to work, so I'll get back to ya' later (if someone else doesn't beat me to it!) LOL

    Very interesting topic. As you can tell, it brings back a lot of old memories of the "dance."

    Craig

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