Whereabouts of Roman census showing Joseph and Mary's registration

by truthseeker 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Does anyone know what happened to the Roman census that was ordered by Caesar Augustus.

    If someone found it, it may contain the names of Jesus' parents, Joseph and Mary.

    Luke 2
    The Birth of Jesus

    1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to his own town to register.

    4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Actually, is there proof in secular history that the Romans took a census in Israel around this time.

    Blondie

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Just thought of something.

    If Mary was already pregnant, but unmarried, how is it she was not punished for this? Did Jehovah protect her or something?

    If Joseph and Mary went to get registered, but were unmarried, would this not have been objectionable?

    This article might shed some light on this question...

    http://web.princeton.edu/sites/chapel/Sermon%20Files/2004_sermons/121904.htm

    “Joseph the Dreamer”

    A sermon preached by Dean Tom Breidenthal in the University Chapel, on The Fourth Sunday of Advent. Text: Matthew 1: 18-25

    December 19, 2004

    We have just heard the beginning of Matthew’s account of the birth of Jesus. But it is not the entire beginning. The absolute beginning is the recitation of a long genealogy that links Abraham to King David, and David to Jesus.

    Here is how it begins:

    “An account of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Aram, and Aram the father of Abinadab, and Abinadab the father of Nahshon, and Nashshon the father of Salmon, and Salmon the father of Boaz by Rahab, and Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of King David” (Matthew 1: 1-6).

    And so it goes until we get down to Jesus.

    No passage like this would ever be chosen as something to be read aloud in church. People just hate passages like this. I can’t tell you how many people have said to me they find the Bible off-putting because of all the “begats.” ‘The important things in the Bible have to do with faith and the moral life,’ we might say. Who cares who is the father of whom?

    Nevertheless, the “begats’ are extremely important, because in each case they serve to provide an individual – whether it be Abraham, David, or Jesus – with a specific identity. ‘This is so-and-so, whose father and mother were so-and-so, who were themselves descended from so-and-so, etc.’ The genealogy is an ID card, if you will. It does not rank one person above another, since every descendent of Jacob is an Israelite with equal privileges and equal obligations. But it says who someone specifically is, as the bearer of particular family tradition and the inheritor of a particular history of successes and failures.

    So we might say that Matthew begins his Gospel by providing us with Jesus’ ID. Here is someone, he says, who bears within his own person the whole promise and tragedy of David, and in whom that story will find its culmination and fulfillment.

    But there’s a twist. The genealogy that links Jesus with David comes down to Joseph, but Matthew, breaking out of the formula that has shaped the genealogy so far, does not say ‘Joseph the father of Jesus.’ Here is how the last part of the genealogy goes, picking up randomly a few verses from the end:

    “And Eliud the father of Eleazar, and Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah” (Matthew 1: 15-16).

    At the last and crucial moment, Joseph is the husband of Mary, rather than the father of Jesus. Matthew goes on to explain this in the passage we heard read today: through the Holy Spirit Mary conceived a child while remaining a virgin.

    So why all the concern about Joseph’s pedigree, if he is not the natural father? It is clearly important in Matthew’s Gospel that Jesus belongs to the House of David: over and over again, people address Jesus as “Son of David,” as they ask him to heal them or forgive them. Yet, when he is on the brink of establishing Jesus’ descent from David through Joseph, Matthew declares that Jesus is not the son of Joseph.

    Does this mean that for Matthew Jesus is not, after all, the son of David? No, quite the opposite. What it means is that Joseph, who is of the House of David, has the power to bring Jesus into the family. When Joseph takes Mary as his wife, he implicitly adopts the child she carries in her womb. When he names the child, the adoption is complete. Through the action of Joseph, Jesus is fully grafted into the House of David.

    We might even say that Joseph assures Jesus a place in the larger human community, since, if Joseph had chosen to accuse his betrothed of adultery, she and her child would have been thrust to the margins of society with no one to care for them. It is even possible that Mary would have been stoned to death.

    It seems incredible that a young man should be responsible for providing the incarnate Word of God with admission into the human community by conferring on him a specific ethnic and familial identity. But that is just what Matthew is saying Joseph did.

    And I do think Joseph was young. Popular tradition has depicted Joseph as an old man for two reasons: first, to suggest that he never had marital relations with Mary, and second, to explain why he is never shows up again in the Gospel narratives. Christians continue to argue about whether Mary had other children besides Jesus, but this hardly gives us reason to assume that Joseph was unable to father children of his own. By the same token, although it appears that Mary was a widow by the time Jesus was pursuing his public ministry, there is no reason to assume that Joseph died of old age.

    This may be a side issue, but it seems important to me. The Matthew Joseph presents us with is a dreamer, like his namesake in Genesis – the one with the technicolor coat. (See Genesis 37-50). Four times in Matthew’s account of the birth of Jesus, Joseph is visited by God in a dream.

    The first time, as we heard today, the angel of the Lord – a euphemism for God – tells Joseph not to put Mary away: “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.” The second time, after King Herod learns of Jesus’ birth, Joseph is warned in a dream to flee with Mary and child to Jesus. Finally, when Herod has died, it is in dreams that Joseph is commanded to bring his family home to Israel, and to settle in Galilee.

    With all the ardor of youth, Joseph the dreamer is totally open to the presence of God, and ready to reassess everything in the light of divine revelation. In Luke’s Gospel, Mary is exactly the same. She listens to Gabriel’s announcement that she is to become the virgin mother of the Messiah, and she says, without the hesitation borne of age and experience, “ I am God’s servant. Be it done to me according to God’s will.” Mary accepted the risk of shame and death, and trusted in God to protect her.

    By the same token, when Joseph takes Mary as his wife, he puts much of his own life at risk. He may not risk losing his life, but, like Mary, he places in jeopardy his personal reputation, his standing in his family, and his self-esteem. And, as the story unfolds, and the newborn Messiah becomes the target of Herod’s rage, Joseph does, in fact, forfeit whatever political security he may have had. Joseph does all of this in order to welcome Jesus into the human community.

  • Legolas
    Legolas

    Correct me if I'm wrong but don't they say that all the records were destroyed?

    I remember when I first talked to the Morons Mormons and I asked where the tablets were and he said they were taking by angels...And I said well isn't that convenient!

    Well to me it's the same case with the bible!

    It's just all pathetic!

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    I thought the Jewish geneaological records were destroyed not the census'.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Here's an interesting thread on the topic.

    http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Thanks JGnat,

    This is particularly interesting:

    The census of Quirinius in 6 C.E. is the first known Roman census to have taken place in Judea, and so it fits the bill. To suggest that this refers to a census that took place ‘before’ the first one known from historical sources, and which provoked quite a reaction for this very reason (see Josephus’ account of what happened), is stretching the limits of credibility.

    This leads us on to the question of whether translating the phrase so that it refers to an enrollment or census that took place before Quirinius was legate of Syria would solve the problem. The answer to this question appears to be ‘no’, but let us not prejudge the matter too hastily. The main reason why the attempt to make this refer to an earlier census does not help is the lack of any evidence for such a census whatsoever.

    Reference is occasionally made to a census around the year 3 B.C.E. The fifth century historian Orosius mentions it, and during this period there is also evidence of the swearing of oaths of allegiance to Caesar Augustus and images of him being set up – not surprising, since it was at this time that he came to power.

    But the census taken was of Roman citizens. The people of vassal kingdoms may have been requested to swear allegiance to Caesar (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.2.4 #42), but even this would have raised objections among the Jews. This enrollment or registration of Roman citizens would not have applied to Joseph of Nazareth, who was not a Roman citizen. Nor was Jesus, since had he inherited this legal status from Joseph, he would not have been crucified, since crucifixion was not a punishment that would be carried out against a Roman citizen

    [See the discussion in chapter 6 of Martin Hengel’s book Crucifixion, SCM, 1977]. So reference to this empire-wide registration of Roman citizens has no relevance to Jesus, and no link whatsoever to Luke 2:1, which refers to a decree regarding taxation. [The article by Glenn Miller at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ clouds the issue precisely by focusing attention on this registration of Roman citizens]. Had the reference been to such an enrollment of Roman citizens, then there would be no obvious reason for mentioning Quirinius’ famous tax census in this context! [as Raymond Brown points out in Birth of the Messiah, Doubleday, 1993, p.552]

    Another reason for thinking that the attempt to make Luke 2:2 refer to an enrollment prior to the census of Quirinius is unable to bring Luke into agreement with Josephus is that while Herod was king, a Roman census in his territory is highly unlikely to have taken place, and certainly such a controversial event could not have taken place without leaving some mark in the literature of that time. It is precisely because it is the first occurrence of such an event that the census for purposes of taxation which took place under Quirinius with the introduction of direct Roman rule caused such a commotion, left its mark in Josephus’ writing, and was so famous that Luke could simply refer to ‘the registration that took place when Quirinius was in charge of Syria’ and everyone would know precisely what he meant. And so, for both grammatical and historical reasons, the attempt to make this a census that took place before Quirinius was legate of Syria is unconvincing.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Another interesting link

    Historical errors

    Matthew: Herod’s attempt to have children two years and younger killed goes unmentioned by his most scrupulous biographer, Josephus.

    Luke: There was no worldwide census, only a local census in Judea 6 CE when Quirinus became governor. It did not affect Galileans who were ruled by Antipas until 39 CE. The Romans had no interest in Jewish ancestry; they were interested in taxable property.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    more on the census from Wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

    Josephus recorded that Quirinius, a Roman senator and governor of Syria, along with an equestrian assistant named Coponius, who was assigned as governor of Iudaea Province after the exile of Herod Archelaus, successor to Herod the Great, were assigned to conduct a tax census for the Emperor. [5] Josephus also stated that Archelaus was exiled ten years after his reign began, [6] and that Quirinius conducted a census after this, in the thirty-seventh year since the Battle of Actium, which places the event at A.D. 6. [7]

    Luke, in the Acts of the Apostles ( Acts 5:37 ), records: "After him (Theudas) Judas the Galilean rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him...."

    Tacitus, in his Annals, gives an obituary for Quirinius (Annals 3.48), though the passage is unfortunately silent on the essentials of the events in question.

    Roman Censuses

    The occurrence of Roman censuses is only partially attested to in the historical sources. Evidence for them includes the occasional mentioning in a history, the archaeological discovery of papyri records in arid climates like Egypt, and certain inscriptions. Often, a census will only be mentioned in one ancient text (for example, only Josephus mentioned directly the census of A.D. 6).

    Augustus had an interest in the collection of census data on his empire. He is known to have taken a census of Roman citizens at least three times, in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and A.D. 14. [18] There is also evidence that censuses were taken at regular intervals during his reign, at least in the provinces of Egypt and Sicily, important because of their wealthy estates and supply of grain. Furthermore, the censuses in Egypt were based on the Egyptian, rather than Roman, calendar. [19] Additionally there is the census in Judea mentioned by Josephus in A.D. 6 (see above). Orosius mentioned another census in 3 B.C., and Josephus records a mandatory "oath of obedience" to Augustus required in Judea at a similar time, which involved the erecting of statues to the emperor. [20] Josephus also mentions that, after the death of Herod, some pleaded with Archelaus for their "taxes to be reduced", a sign of tax pressure in the area prior to A.D. 6. [21]

    Certain official enrolment papers have been discovered in Palestine, regularly taken from no later than A.D. 20 to the time of Emperor Constantine, which includes information on each family based on the testimony of the head of household. These are unknown to the historical sources. From the Egyptian papyri it is known that a Roman census could be conducted in stages, first with an enrollment done in person, and with the taxes enforced subsequently. [22] Sometimes the collection of data took a long time; in an extreme example, a census in Gaul begun by Augustus took some 40 years to complete. [23] Thus it has been argued that such a structuring of a census, if also employed in Palestine, could account for the enrollment mentioned by Luke only, and the later revolt following the enforcement of taxation mentioned by Josephus and Luke. [24]

    Generally an imperial census was not conducted in a Roman client kingdom, though it did infrequently occur. Josephus records that relations between King Herod and Rome were poor. [25] Of course the area had been subject to many Roman military campaigns and tribute payment, beginning with Pompey in 48 B.C., and it is not unfair to characterize Herod largely as a Roman puppet. A Zealots tax revolt accompanied the taxation of Judea in A.D. 6, which drew the attention of Josephus. This has given rise to the speculation that, if there were an earlier enrolment in 4 B.C., it would likely have evoked the same response and subsequent attention of Josephus, unless this enrolment did not involve immediate taxation (such as implied by the enrolment papers mentioned above).

    The census as recorded by Luke is in accord with Jewish [citation needed] , rather than Roman administrative customs, requiring enrolment based on ancestral tribe rather than current location (Luke 2:3-4). Although, even Roman citizens enrolled according to tribe at times. It is known that the Roman Empire did retain certain local tax enrolment customs for non-citizens at times, for example in Sicily. There is also a hint in Josephus that Herod was required to give a tally of his populace by local groupings. [26] Lastly, that a census could require travel is known from certain papyri, [27] and Roman law did prescribe travel, at least at times, when one had land in a city other than where he lived, in which case he was required to enroll in the city where the property was held. [

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Another question to consider is this: Would Joseph, Mary and Jesus have appeared on any further census' after 6BC?

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