Do you understand the ransom?

by Fisherman 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sinis
    sinis
    The official answer would be "to preserve justice" --

    Justice? Thats a sick way of doing it. We need to dump the "humanizing" of god. These are human concepts - a life for a life, etc. If god is FAR beyond anyone or anything, then simply forgiving would all be that is required of a JUST god, right? Once again we come back to the crux of the whole ransom topic which is Universal Soverignty. If universal sov can be disproved than the ransom does not exist. Paganisim has permeated christanity, and the whole crucification/ ransom are aspects of ancient pagan beliefs.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Good point Sinis - and you made me think about this whole "garden of Eden" thing as well.

    Now just exactly how does eating an apple constitute a grave enough sin for God to kill off all of humankind for centuries over this event?

    You could hardly get more than a couple days in jail in most places (well, maybe in North Korea)...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    The Ransom does it meet with perfect justice? This is a very loaded question, because no one can say with certainty what is perfect justice, I don't know that any such thing could exist, except in the mind of those that subjectively feel that some punishment or reward is perfect for the deed. So right from the get go we can say that someone's idea of perfect justice can not be an absolute, and is debateable from the start, depending on a whole set of variables, such as which type of cultural conditioning one was raised in, and which type of indoctrination one was subjected to among other things. So while I seriously question even the existance of some so called "Perfect Justice" I think I can say that somethings can be so far away from what can be considered justice, that most of the human race if giving it an unbiased consideration will agree.

    I think we also need to bring up the question, does every so called wrong act, or sin by a human call for some type of punisment? Is that perfect justice, or is it pettiness? Is there some perfect code of justice that is an integral part of the universe, that requires even God to follow it to the letter? Even, when he much rather show love mercy and forgiveness?

    Many who beleive the Bible to be the literal word of God, are faced with the delema of the many contradictions found in its pages, and when they can't explain it away they often use some type of special pleading, like we see here in our discusion of the ransom, such as "God love is so pure and perfect that we imperfect humans can not understand it."

    Many say Jesus paid the price of Adam's sin, and that now God has the legal means to forgive Adam's offspring. And that because of Adam's original sin, we are dying, and suffering, and that forgiveness of that sin, is bought by Jesus torturous death thus freeing man of the condemnation passed on to us by our very ancient forefather Adam. I just don't see how this can be in any way shape or form perfect justice. For If we were born with sin thru no fault of our own and we can not ever expect to be free from sin no mater how hard we try on our own, how is that perfect justice on God's part to hold us accountable for something we were born with, and we are helplessly unable to over come? It is really justice? Is it loving? I think many who defend such behaivor on the bible God's part do so, with a strongly biased frame of mind, partly out of fear of displeasing this unforgiving deity, and partly because they won't even entertain any thought about this god that is negative, being that they have already made up thier minds, that he is God Almighty and what ever he does is good and should not be questioned, after all when you read the bible regularly over and over again you see what happens to those who in any way challenge him, the outcome is never good, reading this type of indoctrination repeatedly, has its effect on our thinking ability.

  • praiseband
    praiseband

    Sinis - You said it's time to stop humanizing God, and then go ahead and do it yourself with your next words. YOU are trying to set the standard for what a just god would do. God has already told us what his requirements are, but we humans keep trying to make God more like us rather than making ourselves more like him.

    Praise

  • sinis
    sinis

    Sinis - You said it's time to stop humanizing God, and then go ahead and do it yourself with your next words. YOU are trying to set the standard for what a just god would do. God has already told us what his requirements are, but we humans keep trying to make God more like us rather than making ourselves more like him.

    Praise

    And these requirements are where? The bible? You'd have better luck getting to know god if you read the Odyssey, or Illiad. OK, so you mean the Bible. So some of the requirements from this Just God would incorporate, burnt sacrifices, killing of tens of thousands - all for a land grab, killing Davids' innocent illegitimate child, killing every first born in the land, death and doom for billion in Revelations, on and on... yea, that Bible is a heavenly book.

  • praiseband
    praiseband

    Sinis - your last comments are just the point. That's why there is a ransom. The NT brings us the good news of how those things do not need to happen any longer. We are justified through Jesus' willingly, lovingly, offering himself in our place. God did not force the sacrifice upon him - they knew it would happen, but it was not forced by some powerful act of God. PEOPLE did this thing. It was the ultimate portrayal of love - to give your own life for others. Up until this time, people kept trying to make God (the I Am), as well as others, fit the molds that THEY envisioned gods to be. Jesus came with a very unexpected message that God was much different than what they had made him out to be. I do not understand the reasons behind many of the things that took place in the OT. I do, however, believe the NT message of forgiveness, justification and sanctification. I know that I am minuscule compared to God and I cannot understand everything, at least not at this point, anymore than my grandchildren can understand things from geometry to the stock market to biology. The older they get, the more they study, the more they spend time with more mature people, the more they will understand. Praise

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    The temporary and short term death of Jesus (3 days) makes his "sacrificial death" easier to accept. If God's holy spirit brought Jesus comfort and relief so that it soothed his torture this also would make it more acceptable from a human perspective and emotion.

    The Bible says that it was God that sacrificed his son, hence God was responsible for his death. Since the bible says that God is holy, what God did was good according to the Bible.

    I think that because Judas killed himself, it shows that he hated what he had done. People that are unrepentant do no see their sin. Judas gave back the money Seems that the ransom could cover his sin too. In fact if the ransom is in fact truth it should be enough payment for everybody.

  • exjdub
    exjdub
    God must have good reasons for what he does.

    That statement is trouble on so many levels. Why, if you are going to talk about universal justification for a ransom, would you make such an assumption? Why must God have any more reason to kill people than a serial killer? Why are God's actions open to any less criticism than any other murderer? If you took God out of the sentence and inserted "my neighbor" or "my friend", would it make sense or provide explanation for heinous crimes to humanity? To believe in "universal justice", or the "ransom sacrifice" one must have to put blinders on to the horror of what God has perpetrated on mankind...that is if you believe it in the first place. Thankfully I don't believe any more and God, if it did come to light that he existed, would owe me an explanation.

    exjdub

  • exjdub
    exjdub
    The official answer would be "to preserve justice"

    Since when is it right to murder innocent people to preserve justice? Would you feel that way about any other mass killing in our society? A faction of Muslims felt they were "preserving justice" by flying two airplanes in the side of the World Trade Center buildings. Would you now accord them the same justification that you provided for God? To "preserve justice" George Bush and his Cabinet decided to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with the World Trade Center tragedy, so that the world would be safer supposedly. Will they be given the same justification as God?

    Any time you start with a premise that someone's actions, including God's, are from a justifiable stand, you have already removed any objectivity to the actions. God is a murderer. You can state it any way you like, but according to our society and the way that we are supposed to judge matters, God strikes out as a just ruler. To follow him requires that you excuse any and all of his actions, regardless of how wrong they are. Not something I care to do any more.

    exjdub

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    You know, aside from the "ransom", one more thing I never got through my head was this...

    How in the heck did Satan get away without punishment for all these years? I mean - after all, he was -according to the garden- legend the crafty trickster that caused the whole sin thing in the first place. Who died? Adam, Eve, and all their offspring. For eating an apple*, after they were told it was OK by something that must have looked practically as powerful as God in the first place.

    Satan? Oh he and his demon minions were all still around years later to come down, mate with earth females like a 1950 martian sci-fi flick, and thus cause God to get mad and bring on the flood. Who died? Every man, woman, and beast on earth, including the halfbreed offsprings.

    Satan? Oh he and his demon minions just slipped back into the heavens, and were still around to wreak havoc on mankind even after the ransom sacrifice was over and done with. Including getting into the ransom's head and trying to tempt him. People are still dying in droves in the year 2006 AD. - nearly 2000 years after the "ransom was paid".

    Including causing all kind of trouble with the chosen Witnesses with "night visits to single sisters", walking Smurfs, haunted books and mirrors, etc. Even after Jesus began "ruling invisibly in the heavens" - in fact it has gotten "worse" since then, according to the JW.

    *PS - I know the bible supposedly does not really say "apple" - I just use it because the bible does not say "not an apple" either, and it seems to drive the JWs and some other fundies crazy.

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