Do you understand the ransom?

by Fisherman 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Because I am a Christian I accept the ransom with a leap of faith but undrstanding it is beyond my imagination. I cannot justify torturing and killing the innocent, but that is only my thinking. God must have good reasons for what he does.

    It must me conceded however that humanity benefits from a horrific crime and bases its salvation on this perverse crime. Loving the ransom provision and all of that and delighting in human pain seems to me to be sadistic, depressing and perverse. People actually enjoy seeing Jesus nailed to the stake and just love to read the account with pleasure again and again.

    Again, I accept the ransom and the free gift of salvation but I cannot understand the ransom. Can you?

  • RR
    RR

    I think the RANSOM is pretty simple in scope. The following scriptures teach that Jesus’ ransom will save all from death.

    "I will RANSOM them (all mankind) from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction!" - Hosea 13:14

    "Our saviour…will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who have Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." - 1 Timothy 2:3-6

    "And He will destroy…the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." (Isaiah 25:7-8) "…and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

    God’s justice does not mean "just-us." Yet, many teach that only Christians will ever be saved. If this is true, then 95% of the human race is doomed to everlasting death (or worse)—merely because they never heard the name of Jesus. This includes the billions of Asians, Africans, and all who lived before Jesus.

    Did Jesus die on the cross merely to save comparatively few Christians? Those who would believe in him before his second advent? The Bible tells us: NO! Christ died "the propitiation (satisfaction) for our (the Christians’) sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole (presently unbelieving) world." 1 John 2:2

    The Father lovingly provided His only-begotten Son to die "for all" while all were still in sin. (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). God’s plan will provide all—even non-believers—with a full opportunity to benefit from Jesus’ sacrifice. (Hebrews 2:9)

    After being raised from the dead, each person will be taught about Christ and righteousness. Past crimes will be punished but with mercy based on repentance. God will pour out His holy influence on all people through Christ, providing an opportunity for each person to reach mental and moral perfection. (Joel 2:28) Only those who consistently refuse to make progress will be destroyed. (Acts 3:22-23; Ezekiel 18:20-22)

    CONSIDER the logic of God’s Plan to save all men from evil and death: Father Adam, perfect, sinned. The penalty of death passed upon him and the prospective human race yet in his loins. Deliverance from death required the payment of a corresponding price, the death of a perfect man. No member of the sinful (imperfect) human race could pay this price. (Psalm 49:7) Only Jesus, who was "holy, harmless, and separate from sinners" could. (Hebrews 7:26) The perfect man Jesus died for Adam’s sin, taking his place in death, thereby redeeming Adam and all his offspring—the human race—from death.

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins; the just (Jesus) for the unjust (Adam), that he might bring us to God." 1 Peter 3:18

    "…by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men…Therefore, as by the offence of one (Adam) came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:12,18

    The ransom given by Jesus guarantees restitution for the entire human race. This restoration to the perfection lost in Eden is the main purpose of Jesus’ return.

    "And He shall send Jesus…Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things…" Acts 3:20,21

    "The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth." Ephesians 1:10 (Weymouth)

    During Christ’s 1,000 year earthly kingdom (the Day of Judgment), "ALL that are in the graves shall hear" Jesus’ voice, and will "come forth." (John 5:28, RSV) This "Resurrection of the dead" will be in two parts: "the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:15)

    The "just" are Christ’s faithful followers. They receive special salvation now, ahead of the "unjust" non-believing masses. (1 Timothy 4:10; 2 Corinthians 6:2). The "just" will become the heavenly "Bride" of Christ and reign with Jesus over his earthly kingdom. (Revelation 20:4; 21:2). The "unjust" masses will be saved when Jesus and his Bride resurrect and rehabilitate them. The unjust will learn righteousness by merciful judgment and punishment according to past guilt. (Isaiah 26:9; Matthew 16:27; Luke 12:48; Micah 4:1-3) Jesus and his Bride will offer the water of life to the repentant unjust masses (Revelation 22:17) who will walk up the "Highway" leading to holiness and everlasting life on perfected earth. (Isaiah 35:8) Any who then refuse to have God’s law written in their hearts will be sentenced to eternal extinction, the "second death." (Jeremiah 31:33-34; Revelation 21:8) The desert shall blossom, making plenty of room for resurrected mankind. The willing and obedient will live for endless ages on earth in peace and happiness. Mankind will glorify God, saying: "this is our God! We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation!" (Isaiah 25:9)

    A Perfect Life…for a Perfect Life. "…for as in ADAM all die, even so in CHRIST shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

    The RANSOM is the means by which God could justly release Adam (and all mankind) from the death sentence of Eden. The word RANSOM is translated from the Greek word "Antilutron," meaning "an equivalent, corresponding price." This concept of the corresponding price is a fixed law of God’s universe. It is expressed in Israel’s Law Covenant: "Thou shalt give LIFE for LIFE, eye for eye, tooth for tooth." Exodus 21:23-24

    The Corresponding Price

    ADAM:

    1. A Perfect Man—with the right to live forever, as long as he obeyed God.

    2. Sinned through disobedience.

    3. Condemned to death. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"…Genesis 2:17; "For the wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23; "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

    4. All of Adam’s children (the entire human race) inherit Adam’s sin and sentence of death. Romans 5:12, 17-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

    5. Adam and all mankind would be condemned to eternal death and dying—unless another perfect man offered to give his life as a ransom in Adam’s place.

    JESUS:

    1. A Perfect Man. (Not of Adamic descent…born of a virgin by God’s power.)

    2. Obeyed God perfectly.

    3. Had the right to live forever, because obedient. "If a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right…he shall surely live, saith the Lord God." Ezekiel 18:5,9; "Walk in His ways…that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:16

    4. If Jesus had fathered children, his descendants would inherit his perfection, and if obedient, live forever.

    5. Jesus gave up his own perfect human life to die as a ransom in place of Adam, thereby releasing the death sentence upon Adam and all his posterity!

    Jesus’ Ransom for Adam satisfies Justice. It permits Adam and all mankind to be brought back to life! "For since by a man (Adam) came death, by a man (Jesus) came also the resurrection of the dead." 1 Corinthians 15:21 (NAS)

    RR

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    Nope. But I can still say "Thank you"

    Like I can't understand the mystery of life, but I still thank my parents for being so in love that they had meeeeeeeeeeee.

    Cheers

  • Wasanelder Once
    Wasanelder Once

    Let's see, you owe me an unrepayable fee. So that I can cancel that debt I kill my son. Brilliant. Wouldn't it be better to allow you to claim bankruptcy and forgive the debt?

    W.Once

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    One man goofed, which got god super pissed to the point that he needed to kill something, preferably human. He finally calmed down after he killed or had jesus killed. It isn't really a forgiveness of anything, since the original goofup was not excused in any way. All who do not recognise/accept/put faith in the killing of jesus as having value will again cause god to be super pissed off at them.

    S

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/122807/2170709/post.ashx#2170709

    I suggest you read this awe inspiring and wonderfully made thread by theinfamousone if you feel it defies logic - this puts it in a proper perspective I think.

    dear jehovah,

    it has been a few days since we have last spoken. well, since i sent you a letter. as usual, you didnt respond. which, truthfully, does not surprise me. and so, i was left wondering whether you were really there, whether you really cared, or if you are far too busy planning your redemption, or as i call it, revenge.... in the past months i have seen and experienced many things that i wish i had not... i have seen so many things that i wish i could fix, but of course, with the little bit of breathing room you have given me, i have not been able to.... oh god, if only your power was given to me, how much better this world would be.... why have you forsaken us????? for if even your own perfect son can ask this question, why cant i??? where have you gone god? why have you forgotten your other children???

    but as angry as i am at you, i do know there are some things i should be grateful for....like i mean, you have FORGIVEN me for my great great great great grandparents sins... that is such a wonderful thing you have done... what did that cost??? just the death of another person... a death on a torture stake... what a wonderful thing you have given mankind.... you tortured your own "son", so you could forgive us... yes god, thank you so much for your forgiveness... its just funny, you tell me about forgiveness... how i should forgive up to 77 times... and by definition, forgiveness means forgetting it... but every day i am reminded of how lucky i am to have been forgiven, not for my own sins, but for those of people who lived thousands of years ago... thanks for forgiving me, god... but i know, youll never forget...

    my favorite part of what forgiveness is to you is the fact that you needed to be payed back... you needed someone else to die to make it all good with you... oh pardon the expression, to make it even with you... im not sure youre able to keep up with our slang, since i am convinced that you have not been paying attention to the state of the world lately... but we'll discuss that later... right now, i want to discuss the fact that you needed someone to die to make you able to forgive me... where i come from, this is what we call vigilante justice.... you need to kill to make things good.... i dont know, maybe its just my personal opinion, but i dont see you killing someone to make things even forgiveness... i see it as skewered justiced... but again, maybe thats just me.....

    and to those things i saw in the past months that i did not want to see... i saw disease, i saw hunger, i saw starvation and i saw true pestilence... and i see all this in the eyes of children... now you can accuse me of beating a dead horse here, but it seems that my last call to action was ignored by you... why the hell did you just let these kids die of hunger, of pain, of all the shit you let happen... well, heres the point, im not gonna continue telling you that you should act... you either have forgotten about the earth you created and can easily fix, or you are a cruel son of a bitch who doesnt care...well, its your choice, either act and fix things, or sit back on your ass and pretend we dont exist... just know that soon enough, we will all be extinct and if thats what you want, well watch us go... just know that right now i have nothing but five more words for you... but first i shall say, DO SOMETHING GOD, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL SICK OF SUFFERING!!!

    and my last five words,

    thank you god... for nothing

    sincerely,

    the infamous one

    Truly - out of the mouths of babes

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    RR,

    Since a live believer in Russellite "ransom" is pretty rare on this board, I will pick your post apart if you don't mind.

    "I will RANSOM them (all mankind) from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction!" - Hosea 13:14

    (1) OT, Jesus cannot be directly referred to.

    (2) The roots pdh and g'l have a much broader semantic range than "ransom" (implying a price paid to X in order to redeem/free Y).

    (3) In the context of Hosea those sentences are actually rhetorical questions implying a negative answer: should I redeem them...? (No.)

    "And He will destroy…the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces." (Isaiah 25:7-8) "…and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

    No "ransom" there.

    Christ died "the propitiation (satisfaction) for our (the Christians’) sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole (presently unbelieving) world." 1 John 2:2

    Expiation or propitiation (hilasmos) belongs to the vocabulary of sacrifice, which is distinct from "ransom". The WT "ransom sacrifice" blends two unrelated notions which afaik are never lumped togetherin the Bible.

    The Father lovingly provided His only-begotten Son to die "for all" while all were still in sin. (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). God’s plan will provide all—even non-believers—with a full opportunity to benefit from Jesus’ sacrifice. (Hebrews 2:9)

    In those scriptures how Jesus dies "for us" is not explained -- neither by the concept of "sacrifice" nor by that of "ransom".

    After being raised from the dead, each person will be taught about Christ and righteousness. Past crimes will be punished but with mercy based on repentance. God will pour out His holy influence on all people through Christ, providing an opportunity for each person to reach mental and moral perfection. (Joel 2:28) Only those who consistently refuse to make progress will be destroyed. (Acts 3:22-23; Ezekiel 18:20-22)

    Nice but scripturally unjustified. The above quotes don't refer to resurrection. The Bible nowhere describes this scenario. Resurrection is either of life / reward or judgement for past works (before death).

    CONSIDER the logic of God’s Plan to save all men from evil and death: Father Adam, perfect, sinned.

    Here's the core of the issue. The notion of "perfection" is never applied to Adam. Nor to Jesus (with the confirming exception of Hebrews where the Son is made perfect through suffering -- not before).

    The penalty of death passed upon him and the prospective human race yet in his loins. Deliverance from death required the payment of a corresponding price, the death of a perfect man. No member of the sinful (imperfect) human race could pay this price. (Psalm 49:7) Only Jesus, who was "holy, harmless, and separate from sinners" could. (Hebrews 7:26) The perfect man Jesus died for Adam’s sin, taking his place in death, thereby redeeming Adam and all his offspring—the human race—from death.

    See above. Not to mention that God forgot to explain this how so logic plan clearly anywhere.

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins; the just (Jesus) for the unjust (Adam), that he might bring us to God." 1 Peter 3:18

    You've got to love the ambiguity of the English language: the Greek says dikaios (singular) huper adikôn (plural): one just for (all) the unjust ones.

    "…by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men…Therefore, as by the offence of one (Adam) came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:12,18

    As is clear from the whole chapter the point is not restoring what Adam has lost (WT terminology), but starting a new humanity as Adam started the old one. There is parallelism in structure, but inequality in content (cf. the many posô mallôn, "how much more," introducing asymmetries in the parts you omitted:

    But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man's trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

    The ransom given by Jesus guarantees restitution for the entire human race. This restoration to the perfection lost in Eden is the main purpose of Jesus’ return.

    See above.

    "And He shall send Jesus…Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things…" Acts 3:20,21

    Here (in Acts, not in Paul) you have a point about restoration. Otoh there is no ransom there.

    "The purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth." Ephesians 1:10 (Weymouth)

    Here the scope is far beyond humanity (and consequently Adam, at least as father of humanity; as the mythical cosmic original Man you might have a point, but that's not how either you or Russell understand Adam).

    During Christ’s 1,000 year earthly kingdom (the Day of Judgment), "ALL that are in the graves shall hear" Jesus’ voice, and will "come forth." (John 5:28, RSV) This "Resurrection of the dead" will be in two parts: "the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:15)

    Nope. The resurrection occurs after the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 (which are not in view in either John or Acts btw.)

    A Perfect Life…for a Perfect Life. "…for as in ADAM all die, even so in CHRIST shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

    Neither "perfect life" nor substitution, nor restoration in the text. Otoh, asymmetrical parallelism of the two humanities, cf. v. 45ff: Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adambecame a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust;the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven. .

    The RANSOM is the means by which God could justly release Adam (and all mankind) from the death sentence of Eden. The word RANSOM is translated from the Greek word "Antilutron," meaning "an equivalent, corresponding price." This concept of the corresponding price is a fixed law of God’s universe. It is expressed in Israel’s Law Covenant: "Thou shalt give LIFE for LIFE, eye for eye, tooth for tooth." Exodus 21:23-24

    I don't deny that "ransom" is used as a rare NT metaphor, among many others, for Jesus' death (Mark 10:45; Matthew 20:28; 1 Timothy 2:6). A loose and problematic one because it begs for the question, a ransom paid to whom? Mixing the notion of ransom (which should be paid to the enemy) with that of sacrifice (offered to God) is just a too easy way of avoiding this issue, but unfortunately this mix is found nowhere in the Bible. Moreover in the ransom texts it is ransom for many or for all, and no reference to the life of an individual Adam is made.

    And, to answer the original question, realising the artificiality and superficiality of Jesus as a "ransom price," as compared to the wealth of NT christology, was one of the main issues that led me out of the WT.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Nar,

    Nice post. While it is true that the individual Jesus is not metioned by name in OT, the OT does lead readers to conclude that certain prophecies refer to God's ungered. Also, just because the OT does not menion Jesus by name, one cannot conclude that that Messianic prophecies do not apply to him I am familiar with Jewish thought on Messianic verses. Christians conclude that Messianic prophecies apply to Jesus and Jews don't accept Christian views on certain verses as Messianic prophecies, for example the suffering servant of Isaiah. However, above and beyond that, the doctrine of Redemption is found in the OT and the NT. Although the related verses in Hosea can have broader meaning as you note, this does not eliminate the interpretation that God will redeem humans from death as the overall tune of the BIble seems to be saying in support of this interpretation. I think that Hosea is positively saying that God will Redeem. "Should I redeem them?" "No" However, God will anyway. Should God take back adulterous Israel? NO! But, God does. He illustrates this by having the prophet Hosea take back his adulterous wife and her children. No matter how obscure and confusing the meaning of ransom in Hosea, ransom is mentioned in connection with redemption

    However, I also agree with you that the verses in Hosea mentioned do not specifically refer to Jesus, that is a conclusion and also that these verses refer to the sacrificial death of Jesus, which is also a conclusion.

    The fundamental creed of Christianity is that Jesus died a sacrificial death for the purpose of saving humanity . No matter how one explains it , it is all basically the same. "Jesus died for our sins" Why? God required it. In concept, I think that if death and sin holds humaninity captive then the payment to release can be termed ransom. That is what the NT seems to say. Jesus died though, payment was made and yet at AF argues in his treatsie, more is required.

  • Gregor
    Gregor

    Yes, If I put $250,000.00 in unmarked bills in a large bag and leave it next to the big oak tree by the horseshoe pits at City Park, and DO NOT tell the police or the FBI about it, then you will release my little Bobby, unharmed (except for his right ear, which you sent to me as proof you really had him and I am taking it on faith that it was his ear and not some other kids ear).

    But if your talking about the Jesus Christ ransom deal, hell no I don't understand. It sounds like something someone thought up after drinking rubbing alcohol.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Fisherman,

    The fundamental creed of Christianity is that Jesus died a sacrificial death for the purpose of saving humanity . No matter how one explains it , it is all basically the same. "Jesus died for our sins" Why? God required it. In concept, I think that if death and sin holds humaninity captive then the payment to release can be termed ransom. That is what the NT seems to say. Jesus died though, payment was made and yet at AF argues in his treatsie, more is required.

    What I do take issue with is THE pseudo-rational WT explanation, ransom = "perfect man" vs. "perfect man" on the divine scales of justice. I think this is wholly unscriptural, and it is worth pointing out because many xJWs, believers or unbelievers, still hold this definition to be a good summary of the "Bible doctrine" (whether they accept or reject it) long after they have left the WT.

    Stepping back to a broader view of early Christianity, I would put it in perspective:

    Jesus' death and resurrection are central to some Christians; to others, Jesus' teaching is central.

    Jesus' death per se is central to some Christians; to others, Jesus' resurrection is central.

    Jesus' vicarious death for our sins is central to some Christians; to others, Jesus' death as a revelation of God's love, or a model of breaking free from the flesh/sin etc. is central.

    Jesus' vicarious death can be explained through a number of distinct metaphors: expiation sacrifice, propitiation sacrifice, passover lamb, act of intercession, substitutive punishment, redemption, ransom, etc. The very diversity of (strictly) mutually exclusive metaphors, sometimes by the same authors, should prevent the reader from considering any of them as more than a metaphor among others, i.e. as THE true and final explanation.

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