Is evolution a fact or theory?

by sleepy 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • Warren
    Warren

    >>Again the fossil record provides plenty of examples of change over time, even minor, gradual changes from organism to organism that form a sequence that strongly suggests Darwinian evolution -- even though the idea seems nonsensical to many people. One example is the evolution of the mammalian jaw structure, as seen in the fossil record of mammal-like reptiles called Therapsids that lived before roughly 220 million years ago.<<

    The existence of intermediate groups and species seems to be good evidence for evolution. However, the intermediates are not without difficulty for evolutionary theory. First, none of the intermediates have intermediate structures. Although the entire organism is intermediate in structure, it's the combination of structures that is intermediate, not the nature of the structures themselves. Each of these organisms appears to be a fully functional organism full of fully functional structures. Archaeopterx, for example, is thought to be intermediate between reptiles and birds because it has bird structures (e.g.,feathers) and reptile structures (e.g.,teeth, forelimb claws). Yet the teeth, the claws, the feathers and all other known structures of archaeopteryx appear to be fully functional. The teeth seem fully fuctional as teeth, the claws as claws, and the feathers as any flight feathers of modern birds. It is merely the combination of structures that is intermediate, not the structures themselves. Stephen Gould calls the resultant organisms "mosaic forms" or "chimeras." As such they are really no more intermediate than any other member of their group. In fact, there are many such "chimeras" that live today (e.g., the platypus, which lays eggs like a reptile and has hair and produces milk like a mammal). Yet these are not considered transitional forms by evolutionists because they are not found as intermediates in stratigraphic position.

    In my opinion an actual transitional form would be something like a creature having a half-leg/half-wing structure. such a half-leg/half-wing structure is absolutely essential because, otherwise, one could always string together a sequence of fossils into a seeming chain of transitions.

    Think of it this way: Humans have designed a large number of different types of teaspoons. Some are made of stainless steel, others of silver. Some have monograms on them, others do not. Yet they are all classifiable as teaspoons. And though there are many types of tablespoons, many types of soup spoons and many types of serving spoons, all these types of spoons can be classified together as spoons. The wide variety of spoons can be classified with the wide variety of forks and the wide variety of knives as silverware; and the silverware can be classified with plates, bowls and cups as tableware. Tableware can be classified with furniture and appliances as housewares, and so on. Humans, without so intending, create objects that are distibuted in character space in a nested hierarchy of form. A mere proposed sequence does not tell us if the sequence is the result of intelligent design or random mutations and natural selection. Darwinists presuppose a blind watchmaker, and then impose this hypothesis on the evidence.

    When it comes to mammal-like reptiles, these presumed lineages contain such a bewildering array of ostensibly reptilian, mammalian, and unusual traits, that they do not show an unambiguous phylogenetic path to mammals. Therefore, they are best understood as creatures which have a wide and confusing assortment of traits otherwise associated only with reptiles and only with mammals.

    As for intermediates, evolutionists can ALWAYS concoct SOME kind of impressive-looking evolutionary sequence. For instance if we, for fun, were to pancake-flip the geologic column upside-down, it would be interesting to see how evolutionists would construct some sort of phylogeny whereby some modern marine invertebrate evolves into a Cambrian trilobite--all the while hailing the sequence as a chain of transitional forms.

  • rem
    rem

    Warren,

    All the computer simulation has to prove is that it is POSSIBLE to create information from natural selection and random mutation. Since it IS possible and has been observed, the rest of your cut and paste job about computer models is moot. The fact that the simulation doesn't have all of the details of real life does not detract from the fact that information CAN be created by naturalistic means.

    Just because a computer simulation of a wing in a wind tunnel doesn't have all of the details of physics doesn't mean that a wing can't really fly. The fundamentals are sound, the details are what make things interesting.

    Try and see the big picture.

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • rem
    rem

    Warren,

    As for intermediates, evolutionists can ALWAYS concoct SOME kind of impressive-looking evolutionary sequence.

    What do you propose? That some sky daddy was actively designing these creatures, but changed his mind and destroyed over 90% of them in great extinction events throughout history? Or perhaps he didn't design them correctly and they didn't survive in their environment? Is the sky daddy simply incompetent or fickle? What's gonna happen to us when he gets tired of our design? Are we just a prototype to something better or do you believe we are the end-all-be-all creation? Who is this sky daddy? Is it an invisible pink unicorn? Is it just one or many? Does it even have a personality? Intelligence does not necessarily denote a personality. Could you really call the creator of the many half baked creatures on this planet intelligent?

    Do you see how ridiculous the alternative sounds?

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • Warren
    Warren

    I notice you don't underestimate how important philosophical and logical arguments against intelligent design are in making the case for naturalistic evolution. Again, I ask you what is the scientific evidence that mutation/selection can create complex biological structures and organs? If there is no such evidence then Darwinian macroevolution theory is being supported by nothing more than philosophical and logical arguments against ID. Darwinism is popular because it is a purely naturalistic theory, but that doesn't amount to much if no empirical data suports it. If there is no scientific evidence that demonstrates that mutation/selection can produce complex biological structures and organs then what reasons are there for believing that Darwinian theory is true? When one substracts from Darwinian theory the philosophical and logical arguments against ID, what is left?

    The really important claim of Darwinism is that biological creation could and did occur by known material mechanisms without the need for intelligent assistance. "The Blind Watchmaker" is the title of the famous book by Oxford University zoologist Richard Dawkins. Dawkins begins his book with the observation that "biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. That sounds like Intelligent Design, however, Dawkins wrote The Blind Watchmaker to convince the public of something that Darwinists take for granted: namely, that the appearance of purposeful design in biology is misleading, because all living organisms, from ants to anthropologists, are the products of a natural evolutionary process employing random variation and natural selection. But what if no scientific data supports this blind watchmaker hypothesis? How do we account for the complicated things in nature that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose?

    I agree that for a theory to be scientific it must be rigorously empirical. The only logical argument against Intelligent Design is to show that no empirical evidence supports it. One can't just label ID a supernatural theory and be done with it. I could call Darwinian theory a supernatural theory but that wouldn't make it so. If one is going to label ID supernatural they need to demonstrate that it is empirically undetectable, something beyond the reach of science. No one has done that. Intelligent Design theory does not resort to any magical, miraculous, or incomprehensible processes. Design theory looks to results from probability and information theory, cybernetics, computational complex theory, molecular biology, and chemistry in reaching the conclusion that any naturalistic alternative to design fails when it comes to the production of complex biological structures and organs. This is all based on the empirical. Nothing here is supernatural.

    Intelligent Design entails that naturalism in all forms be rejected. Metaphysical naturalism, the view that undirected natural causes wholly govern the world, is to be rejected because it is false. Methodological naturalism, the view that for the sake of science, scientific explanation ought never exceed undirected natural causes, is to be rejected because it stifles inquiry. Nothing is gained by pretending science can get along without intelligent causes. Rather, because intelligent causes are empirically detectable, science must ever remain open to evidence of their activity.

    It's fascinating to me that the materialists simply have no category for agency as a genuine type of causation. They carve up the world into natural causes and miracles, and seem completely blind that agency -- intelligent causation -- is not ipso facto "miraculous".... Suppose some engineers go out to learn why a bridge fell. They begin with natural causes (e.g., metal fatigue), and exhaust those. In the course of their investigation, however, they discover certain patterns of evidence that lead them to think the bridge was sabotaged. It fell because someone intended it to fall. That's a real possibility. But, on returning to report their findings, they're told, "nonsense...there must be a natural explanation. Keep looking! Don't come to us with these magical hypotheses." Would we blame the engineers for scratching their heads?

    Naturalism conflicts with principles of logic. There are essentially only two hypotheses regarding origins. The naturalistic hypothesis is that life and its diversity results only from chance and necessity while the design hypothesis suggests that it results from a combination of design, chance and necessity. If you philosophically limit inquiry and explanation to only the naturalistic hypothesis, then you violate the laws of logic which seek to produce reliable and trustworthy explanations. Applying naturalism to origins science is like an investigator assuming that every house fire is the result of accidental or natural causes and that arson (a fire started on purpose, by design) is not a permitted explanation. If the investigator rules out design before examining the evidence he will always conclude that fires result only from accidental or natural causes.

    Like an arson investigation, origins sciences, including evolutionary biology, are historical sciences. They seek to use present evidence to explain a past (unobservable) event. Rigorous logic and objectivity are particularly necessary in the writing of any historical account. An historical account that is driven by bias or a single philosophical, cultural, religious or other viewpoint, can never be credible, reliable or trustworthy.

  • Warren
    Warren

    >>All the computer simulation has to prove is that it is POSSIBLE to create information from natural selection and random mutation. Since it IS possible and has been observed, the rest of your cut and paste job about computer models is moot. The fact that the simulation doesn't have all of the details of real life does not detract from the fact that information CAN be created by naturalistic means.<<

    As one scientist puts it:

    "In his book Steps Towards Life, Manfred Eigen (1992, p. 12) summarizes the task of origins-of-life research as follows: "Our task is to find an algorithm, a natural law that leads to the origin of information." This summary of origins-of-life research is at once insightful and misguided. It is insightful because it correctly isolates the central problem facing origins-of-life research, to wit, the origin of information. At the same time, it is misguided because it prescribes an unworkable solution for this problem, to wit, algorithms and natural laws. Algorithms and natural laws are utterly incapable of producing information. Indeed, it is an oxymoron to attribute the origin of information to algorithms and natural laws--information is inaccessible from algorithms and natural laws. Eigen is working on the right problem, but looking to the wrong solution. Eigen's insight is to see that the origin of information constitutes the central problem facing origins-of-life research; Eigen's mistake is to think that algorithms and natural laws constitute the solution."

    To be more precise it's not just the origin of information that stands in question, but the origin of complex specified information. First we need a means of measuring information and then we must make a distinction between specified and unspecified information. This is a vast and complicated topic whose full elucidation is beyond the scope of this post. It requires the formulation of a substantial technical apparatus involving both probability and complexity theory (all the painstaking details about specification).

    I provided a more simple line of inquiry in a previous post:

    "If neo-Darwinian evolution works, it should be possible to mimic the process in software. Computers should be able to mimic what biological evolution has done. No computer program simulates the creation of new genes that code for new functions.

    More broadly, if a software model of evolution is possible, ordinary personal computers should be able to evolve wholly new, unexpected features that are somehow advantageous to them or their software. For example, computers might acquire the ability to activate other helpful programs, network with other computers, use the telephone, identify and disarm harmful viruses, automatically backup themselves, survive crashes, etc. All of these improvements would require new computer code. Since computer programs are transferred constantly, and duplicated, and mistakes are inserted occasionally, just as in biology, the opportunity for existing computer programs to evolve by the neo-Darwinian method is already in place.

    Of course, in the marketplace, computers have acquired these and many other new abilities, but not in a closed system. To mimic neo-Darwinian evolution, they would have to evolve improvements without input from programmers, starting with only programs already available. To suggest that computers might evolve significant improvements this way seems farfetched. Why? Can computers, without the input of new code, write for themselves any programs with fundamentally new meaning? Is there any example of an improvement
    to personal computers that was written by the unguided random duplication, mutation and recombination of existing code? "

  • Hojon
    Hojon

    One of the best arguments against intellegent design is the fact that most animals are obviously "works in progress." For example, if we (and everything else) were all created, why do I have an appendix? Why do I have hair all over my body that serves no purpose? Why do so many humans have back problems (as if we are still new to this upright thing)?

    Why do Pandas have fake thumbs? Why do whales have leg and hip bones?

    All these things (and hundreds more like them) seem to indicate either a poor design (seems unlikely from an omniscient and omnipotent god) or that we are still adapting.

    Or how about this- the fossil record clearly shows organisms increasing in complexity through time. Occasionally there is a mass extinction and the pattern picks up again, simple to complex. Even assuming that there are no transitional fossils (as many creationists claim) how can that be explained?

  • rem
    rem

    Warren,

    Of course, in the marketplace, computers have acquired these and many other new abilities, but not in a closed system. To mimic neo-Darwinian evolution, they would have to evolve improvements without input from programmers, starting with only programs already available. To suggest that computers might evolve significant improvements this way seems farfetched. Why? Can computers, without the input of new code, write for themselves any programs with fundamentally new meaning? Is there any example of an improvement
    to personal computers that was written by the unguided random duplication, mutation and recombination of existing code?

    What is the purpose of these software "improvements"? If the purpose is not to replicate themselves more efficiently then of course we wouldn't see such features added as information through random mutation - there is no natural selection to select such useless features (from the program's point of view). You seem to be confusing your analogy. The purpose of most computer programs are to benefit the user or the programmer - not to self replicate. Life is made up of organisms who's sole reason for being is to replicate. The new information they gain through mutation and natural selection has to give them some type of advantage in this goal.

    It's fascinating to me that the materialists simply have no category for agency as a genuine type of causation. They carve up the world into natural causes and miracles, and seem completely blind that agency -- intelligent causation -- is not ipso facto "miraculous".... Suppose some engineers go out to learn why a bridge fell. They begin with natural causes (e.g., metal fatigue), and exhaust those. In the course of their investigation, however, they discover certain patterns of evidence that lead them to think the bridge was sabotaged. It fell because someone intended it to fall. That's a real possibility. But, on returning to report their findings, they're told, "nonsense...there must be a natural explanation. Keep looking! Don't come to us with these magical hypotheses." Would we blame the engineers for scratching their heads?

    Obviously intelligent causation could be a factor in a bridge failure. We know humans created the bridge. We know humans exist. From your statement we might as well presume that Invisible Pink Unicorns brought the bridge down since we couldn't rule anything out. There is no evidence of any other intelligence in the universe apart from humans (I suppose we could also categorize animals as intelligent). God is just as much a fantasy as Santa Claus. From what I know of history, every time we have tried to postulate some higher intelligence for natural phenomenon we have been wrong. Why invent an intelligent cause when naturalistic explanations are adequate. Occam's razor and all.

    If you philosophically limit inquiry and explanation to only the naturalistic hypothesis, then you violate the laws of logic which seek to produce reliable and trustworthy explanations. Applying naturalism to origins science is like an investigator assuming that every house fire is the result of accidental or natural causes and that arson (a fire started on purpose, by design) is not a permitted explanation. If the investigator rules out design before examining the evidence he will always conclude that fires result only from accidental or natural causes.

    We don't have to look into every possibility. Only the likely ones. would it be illogical not to search for Invisible Pink Unicorns behind every pehonomenon since we trying not to limit our investigation? That is absurd. With fires, we know humans are capable of causing fires. We know humans exist. We don't know that elves exist, so we don't automatically suspect them in fires.

    We know lightening happens. Should we assume that lightening has an intelligent cause, or at least investigate it for the sake of being logical? We know humans do not create lightening from the sky. We do know naturalistic explanations are adequate to understand lightening. I suppose if you run all of the numbers you could find some reason to believe there is some intelligent backing for the lightening phenomenon, but whether they do or not we know lightening is not intelligently caused. The same could be said about snowflakes, crystals, dreikanters, and other artifacts that LOOK designed but are not.

    In the past humans thought that gods created lightening. They were wrong. Today many humans think that gods create and guide the design of life. History has shown the god of the gaps hypothesis to always be wrong in the face of natural explanations. My educated guess is that ID will just be another footnote in the evolution debate. One (hopefully) last effort to keep the god hypothesis and make it look somehow scientific.

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • Warren
    Warren

    Rem>>History has shown the god of the gaps hypothesis to always be wrong in the face of natural explanations. My educated guess is that ID will just be another footnote in the evolution debate. <<

    People like Rem will always be able to claim that the rejection of abiogenesis is premature. They would be making the exact same claim even if life was truly designed. Even if life was designed, they would be claiming such an inference is a "designer-of-the-gaps" approach. Since they would be making these very claims even if ID was behind the origin of life, their claims are rendered meaningless.

    As for the issue of evidence, when Rem claims there is no evidence for ID he is speaking from within the confines of his non-teleological world view. From such a position, all evidence must point to a non-teleological cause. If it doesn't, then it becomes "no evidence". That is, a non-teleologist has only two options - evidence for a non-teleological cause or the unknown. Thus, it is common for non-teleologists to interpret the fact that there is no evidence for their positions to mean we are dealing with the unknown. This also explains why it is that when non-teleologists are asked what type of data they would consider evidence for ID, they inevitably retreat into the realm where they demand certain proofs of ID. They are so indebted to their world view that it is not possible for them to tolerate an ID inference because it is only an inference. They need proof and certainty. But only with an ID explanation. They will tolerate all kinds of speculation when advocating blind watchmaking.

    What about Occam's razor? Scientists don't accept naturalistic abiogenesis because of the evidence. Such a belief is not tied to evidence. Thus, we can see the double standard in play as non-teleologists embrace extraordinary claims without any evidence, yet demand (while pounding the podium) proof of ID.

    Do scientists accept naturalistic abiogenesis as a working assumption because to them it's the most parsimonious explanation? No, scientists accept naturalistic abiogenesis because the game rules of science preclude any hint of teleology. Is Rem working from the faulty assumption that science is about coming up with the best possible explanation?

    As for the issue of parsimony, it is really a matter of opinion (i.e., scientists have conducted no objective parsimony analysis/study such that the results unequivocally exclude ID).

    Personally, I find ID to more parsimonious when explaining the origin of life, especially when we consider all the data.

  • ianao
    ianao

    Here dogma!

    WOOOOF WOOOF WOOOF

    Come back old dogma!

    Best, dog'gone crutch in the west!

  • rem
    rem

    Warren,

    Not sure I understood what you meant on that last post. I'm also not sure why you mentioned Abiogenesis when we've been discussing Evolution all this time. Evolution and Abiogenesis are completely separate theories. One does not rely upon the other.

    I do know there is some interesting research going on in the field of Abiogenesis, but it is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. I would expect we will find a naturalistic explanation for Abiogenesis someday, but maybe we wont. Maybe it's too difficult a problem to solve? (I doubt it) Maybe some god really did start everything off and left life to evolve via natural selection? (I doubt it) Maybe Invisible Pink Unicorns started it all? (I doubt it) The point is, why should we postulate supernatural causes when there is no evidence of supernatural agents?

    So far everything that we've examined with the scientific method has shown to NOT be caused by supernatural agents. Even things that we "just knew" were supernatural phenomenon in unenlightened times.

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

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