"These also I must bring..."John 10:16

AuldSoul

An invitation to any JWs, ex-JWs, faders, lurkers or readers: Please wreck this if you can. I trying to tackle a foundation doctrine of JWs as simply as I possibly can. If anyone has a way to further simplify this, please offer suggestions.

John 10:16—"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

The Greek word for "fold" means "fold, or yard."

| |
| yard |
| |
+—————wall——————gate———————————————+
| |
| yard |
| |

Two yards. One wall. One gate (Jesus). Sheep in each yard. The sheep in both yards are already Jesus' sheep; they are not yet in one flock, but they will be one flock.

Ephesians 2:14-18—"For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit."

What happened to the walls, and who were the two groups of sheep that became one flock?

Ephesians 4:4-6—"One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all."

How many hopes?

I think there is ample reason here for any current JW to consider carefully whether the Bible actually teaches that there were, are, or ever would be two distinct classes of Christians with two distinct hopes, two different destinations (instead of "one flock" as the destination), and two distinct eventual natures (thanks for pointing that out, M.J. ).

Go ahead. Obliterate it.

M.J.

Not only that, but the two classes are completely distinct in nature. According to JW doctrine, one class is of a spirit nature and the other physical. This puts an even greater divide between the two beyond the question which "hope" each class has.

A Paduan

And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock

Jws read - there are other sheep that aren't of my special fold, and I must bring them, to another albeit different place, where you will give them guidance from above. So there shall be two flocks.

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Screwy, screwy stuff

AuldSoul

Nicely put, A Paduan. Also, it is the rare JW who knows Jesus was recorded as talking to the Pharisees in John 10:16. They assume he was talking to his disciples, because that is the only way to make their doctrine make any kind of sense at all.

Narkissos

That's a detail we have already discussed here, but John 10 actually doesn't mention two folds/yards, only one (cf. v. 1). Not of/from (ek) this fold doesn't mean of/from another fold. Prior to the shepherd's coming the "other sheep" may be better pictured "in the open" as it were.

AuldSoul

Even better, Narkissos. Thanks!

So it was "this fold" as opposed to "free-range sheep" (mmmm, mutton with mint jelly...but I digress); Jews as opposed to those who were not in a fold at all, i.e. Jews as opposed to Gentiles.

Thanks for pointing that up.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

BCZAR2ME

AuldSoul, NWT Revelation 21:

:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth;......
:3 "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples....And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more,..."

Apparently there will be mankind living on earth. No death = no going to heaven. A new heaven goes with Jesus comment at John 14:21

I am going my way to prepare a place for you

In this illustration Jesus actually mentions three sheepfolds. One is identified with the Mosaic Law covenant pointing to the Christ. The other two folds benefit from the same ransom--one flock under one shepherd.

On the point of whom Jesus was speaking to John 9:40 states:

Those of the Pharisees who were with him....

These asked Jesus a direct question so he spoke to them. Chapter 10 is a continuation of the conversation with everyone present. John 10:19

Again a division resulted among the Jews because of these words.

Many were present to hear Jesus speak these words. Not just his disciples and not just the Pharisees. How would the audience change the meaning of Christ's words?

I used the NWT, however, the dubs have not cornered the marked with the 2 separate groups' idea.

bczar

myelaine

Ephesians 4:4-6—"One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all."

How many hopes?.......just one...

In this manner, therefore pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. .....For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...Rev 21:2

For He, Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of division between us. (Ephesians 2:14)

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

love michelle

Star Moore

Hi Auld,

I was thinking that perhaps the 'other sheep' could be a group that appears in the GT. The same as the 'great crowd', that are not true christians at all...but in the GT, they would be the people who are attracted to the new Jesus that appears, and not the 2,000 year old one. These could be muslims, atheists or any religion at all. (every tribe, nation and tongue). I'm thinking it wouldn't be entirely fair for the people to be judged on a man who lived so long ago and on a bible which has been changed alot by translators.. and on the fact of being lucky enough to be born in a christian community. Another words, I'm thinking at the end, there could be another separating work, based on current things happening, that Jesus can be orchestrating? What do you think?

Honesty

Shepherds do not separate their flocks.

They keep them together to discourage predators.

"These also I must bring..."John 10:16

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"These also I must bring..."John 10:16