Wisdom and folly

by Narkissos 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  Narkissos

  I've been thinking about this topic for some time.

  Wisdom and Folly. Sages and prophets in the Bible texts and the wider ancient Near Eastern world. Apollo and Dionysos in Greek tradition. Reason and insanity in the modern age. Conscious and unconscious in the post-Freudian era. A lot of asymmetrical pairs which imo are both different from, and related to, each other.

  Christianity, from its very beginning, played on both sides of this polarity: on the one hand it claimed the wisdom and knowledge of OT tradition, Hellenistic philosophy and early Gnosticism. On the other hand, it did appeal to different forms of "folly" -- the apparent mania or ekstasis of the charismatic communities, or the môria (perhaps more accurately translated "idiocy," linked to astheneia, "weakness") of Paul's message of the cross, or the blatantly impractical radicalism of much of the teaching ascribed to Jesus (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount).

  While this topic clearly exceeds the JW/xJW sphere, I'd like to ask a couple of questions here:

  (1) Do you think you were attracted to the JW teaching because "it seemed reasonable" (borrowing from a frequent and revealing WT phrase) or because it sounded (and ultimately was) crazy? (This question mostly addresses JW "converts" rather than "born-in")

  (2) Since you left the "truth" (lol), have you been mostly pursuing some form of "reason" (which can include scientific knowledge, plain "common sense" or social "normalcy") or some form of "folly" (whether religious experience or personal fantasy/intuitions for instance)?

  I am personally convinced that nobody is 100 % "rational" or 100 % "irrational," but we certainly have very different ways to articulate the two sides of our brain...
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  Butters

  I teamed up because they looked neat and had plenty of neat looking magazines. I started reading the neat magazines and agreed with many wondeful issues like "The Beautiful Moth" and other wonderful Awake! articles. The Watchtower was like being back in school again, I got to raise my hand and answer questions. They even had a guy with a microphone to bring to me. It was usually the black people that got that part. The elders were wonderful white men with lots of money. I liked that too. But then, one day... I started doing something else. I started actually reading the bible. I found out that the bible actually teaches something totally different from what they were claiming. I was beginning to get a little upset. So I started asking some questions. Next thing you know, I was being looked at funny. "He's doubting Jehovah's authority" and such. Finally, I snapped. I just up and left. Without a trace. And I lived happily ever after...
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  PrimateDave

  Well, I was a born in Witness. Still, I thought I had "the truth" because it was reasonable. I once looked down on those in "Christendom" who got the "holy spirit" in their churches because it seemed like folly to me. How could they, I thought, have god's spirit when the didn't have accurate knowledge? So, I figured that their "spirit" actually came from Satan who used it like a drug on churchgoers to addict them to the wrong form of worship.
  
  I left "the truth" because I found out that it wasn't. I came to see the so-called reasonableness of Witness teachings to be like dry, stale leftover bread served with lukewarm water. At least those charismatics had fun in their worship. All I had were a bunch of worthless teachings based on an old book. That said, I still search after knowledge and seek reasonable beliefs, but I use logic and science as a guide instead of superstition and fallacy.
  
  Dave
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  becca1

  Joining: I had no choice in the matter. Idf I wanted to please my parents (which I desperatly did and still have not achieved) I had to sign up.

  Leaving: I've had enough.

  Looking for meaning: Nope. Happy to take each day at a time and enjoy the ride.
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  MegaDude

  1) Seemed reasonable but it was all I knew as I was a raised-in.

  (2) Pursuing truth which includes the scientific as well as the mystical.
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  stillajwexelder

  (1) Do you think you were attracted to the JW teaching because "it seemed reasonable"

  Yes on balance at the time it made sense
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  Carmel

  Having spent nearly ten years post DF'ing, looking for a cosmology that explained all the diversity of beliefs in the world and the folly of "biblical literalism" I finally gave up and contented myself to be agnostic and secular. About eight years later I stumbled upon a religion that was inclusive, made infinately more sense than any of the limited beliefs I'd investigated in the past and conformed with science, reason and logic, while still maintaining a mystical element. It teaches that man will continually evolve to higher forms of consciousness (spirituality) and is entering an age of maturity in his collective life that parallels the individual's progress through life. I am free to invest as much or little time as I please without coersion or pressure. My life is filled with intellectual, social, and "spiritual" stimulation and know that I am contributing to an "ever advancing civilization".

  carmel
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  jwfacts

  As a born-in I will answer the second part only.

  I have always had ying-yang as my life philosophy and move between both extremes in every aspect of my life. For this reason my search for truth pendulums between scientific athiesm and a belief in an ultimate almighty God. I find it hard to accept that there is no greater cause, and feel it 'reasonable' to conclude that our short stint on earth is part of our learning and development before a heavenly spiritual existence. My middle ground is to be happily agnostic.

  My life is filled with intellectual, social, and "spiritual" stimulation and know that I am contributing to an "ever advancing civilization".

  I agree totally Carmel. This is the exact opposite of Watchtower philosophy that states we are in decline as we move further from perfection, a teaching that has no grounding whatsoever in reality.
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  Narkissos

  Thanks for the replies so far -- especially those on topic (you know who you are ).

  I joined at 13 -- even though I was misinformed in a number of ways it was still a personal decision. I did not perceive the difference at first (I bought into the whole package as "the Truth"), but it became more and more important as time went by.

  I became increasingly bored with what I later came to term the JW's "gullible rationalism". All that doctrinal, prophetic, chronological so-called "knowledge" which so many JWs call "deep" and I tended to consider as terribly shallow, long before I realised it was crap.

  On the other hand, I was increasingly committed to what I retrospectively construed as the "irrational side" of the JW belief system and way of life. For instance:
  - Jehovah, the creation and the end of the world, not as ways to make sense of reality (either by original cause or final justice) but because of their potential for subversion (or denial perhaps) of said "reality," in principle preventing anything and any "common sense" to be taken for granted. Making room for the unlikely, if not the impossible.
  - Living by faith instead of rationally planning for the future.
  - Living for Jehovah instead of for myself (or so I wanted to think).

  Quite logically (if I dare say), I didn't leave because I realised it was false (although I did) but because I found something "crazier" in a sense, i.e. the NT's own brands of "folly" as I outlined above.

  I suspect many (or at least some) JWs, more or less unwittingly, know it is false but cling to it for a similar irrational commitment. Shoving "reason" and "facts" down their throats will hardly help. After all most religious people don't expect reason from religion. They'd sooner leave for something crazier than for something more "sensible". Even if they are the minority it's still something to ponder.

  Further input welcome.
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  jwfacts

  Interesting post, i would love to see more answers.

  When I was 12 my bible study conductor said that many people are unable to accept Watchtower doctrine because it is too 'simple'. I could never understand what he meant until after I left 20 years later, because as a JW I was taught how not to question irregularities. By never taking a question to its ulitmate conclusion a person never comes to see the simple folly of the concepts. Though priding themselves on having a religion based on knowledge and wisdom it is otherwise. All Watchtower doctrine is simple, as it is based on the following to explain the entirety of matters;

  • After being alone for eternity God wanted to share his love so he began creation
  • Badness resulted a mere 6000 years ago as a disagreement over the sovereignty issue
  • Badness will be removed at the end of 7000 years and humans will live in endless perfection on this literal earth
  • In this final chapter of the story Jehovah chose the Watchtower corporation to be the 'ark' to the few worthy of salvation

  Doctrine too is greatly simplified

  • The doctrine of the Trinity is dismissed because "it is impossible to have 3 people in one God".
  • The Soul doctrine is one of the most simple of any religion. We did not exist before birth, and will not exist after death. At some future time the dead will be resurrected from God's memory, yet as a mere shadow of who we are. That clone will have new flesh that looks different from the original, with a new dose of God's spirit, and only partial memory as "the former things will not be bought to mind" for the lobotomised version of who we once were.

  Even spirituality is removed as a JW. There is no Spirit specifically available to the followers, no born again experiences and no gifts of the spirit such as tongues and healing.

  This entire structure is filled with unanswerable inconsistencies, yet a JW is forbidden to scratch below the surface to realise the lack of depth. If a question is raised it is the fault of the person who is obviously immature and must wait on Jehovah to reveal the answer. It seems to me the Watchtower shields a person from both the wisdom and the folly of religion, and has created a boring 19th century version of truth.

  Despite knowing this for years I did not leave until I was pushed, because of accepting the similarly crazy notion that only as a JW could i be happy and with meaning in my life.

  Nark, why were you attracted to the folly of the NT in other Christian religions, and where do you sit now?