Excuse me, gentlemen, does this mean I still cannot join the YMCA?
Excuse me, gentlemen, does this mean I still cannot join the YMCA?
SBF..Jehovahs Witness`s don`t do whats good for Jehovahs Witness`s..They do as thier dam well told by the WBT$..WBT$ does whats best for the WBT$..Thats usually never good for Jehovah`s Witness`s..WBT$ association with the CESNUR is just one more emberassment Jehovah`s Witness`s have to endure...OUTLAW
Groan... you caught me. Not answering your question was all part of my evil twisted semi-apologist plan.
Yes Martin Luther King Jnr. was involved in politics. He wanted to change society for its own sake. Jehovah's Witnesses simply want to have freedom to worship. When they change some law or set a precendent as a result of that aim then that is a by-product, not the main objective. I am sure you understand the difference.
James Penton and Gary Botting also defend the rights of religious minorities such as Jehovah's Witnesses. Are they also wacko fringe cult defenders? By the way, you might have heard of them, they wrote Apocalpse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses and The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses respectively.
BTW, they explain their own interpretation of "being no part of the world" and stick to it. If they made an interpretation and then acted contrary then that would be inconsistent, but they abide by their own interpretation.
sbf, I'm not getting sucked into a discussion of CESNUR. You're trying to change the subject, a famous debating tactic that you learned at your Kingdom Hall. Go back and look at my post and address the actual issues therein.
I argue that their definition of being no part of the world is inconsistent and adds to what the Scriptures dictate. I also argue that, even if their interpretation is correct, they do not conform to it. Involvement with CESNUR is proof of that violation of principle. So, of course, was UN NGO status. So amicus curae involvement with Jimmy Swaggart's tax lawsuit. Lastly, they have a different set of standards for individual members than they have for their organization at large--any individual member would have been disciplined in the 90's for any involvement whatsoever in CESNUR, the UN, or for friend of the court filings in a case involving a televangelist.
I'm not expert on law here, but I think we are overlooking the obvious. As a young man, after reading the International Bill of Human Rights, I find that the Jehovah's Witnesses do in fact break at least a few of the rules set forth. Namely Article 12, which states: "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks." -- I'm sure everyone can think of how the Witnesses not only invade privacy but also how they viciously label people as apostates and attack their honor and reputation. How is this not a violation? There are other articles like Article 18 which is about the undisturbed freedom of opinion and the right to change religions, or what about Article 19 that says you can use any media available to distribute your own ideas and opinions? Or what about Article 16 that says everyone, with no limitation due to religion, has the right to marry and found a family? Doesn't the Watchtower break that by teaching us we can only marry people within the Organization? Isn't that a "limitation due to religion"?
Your on the money Morroco..WBT$ does whats best for the WBT$,not Jehovah`s Witness`s...OUTLAW
WT gets involved with politics and social issues for its own ends.
Consider the following:
Special edition of Awake! to explore issue of creation
As the issues surrounding creationism continue to be debated, during the month of September, Jehovah’s Witnesses will distribute a major consideration of the topic.
Why would WT be distributing Awake on creation if it didn't know about the political, educational and social issues?
OK, SBF, I'm glad you had the sense to acknowledge that Martin Luther King involved himself in politics:
: Yes Martin Luther King Jnr. was involved in politics.
However, the reason you gave for his involvment is too vague to have any meaning:
: He wanted to change society for its own sake.
Let's be specific: King wanted blacks in America to have exactly the same freedoms as whites, both under the law and in practice. He wanted them to be able to get jobs the same as whites, to be able to vote with the same freedom as whites, and so forth. In short, King wanted a subgroup of Americans to have the same freedom to pursue their individual goals in life as most of the members of the entire group of Americans. In order to pursue his goal, King played the political game, including using the media to draw attention to his cause in order to change public opinion and the opinions of lawmakers, using the political process (i.e., testifying before Congress and other lawmaking bodies, lobbying the same in private, etc.) to influence laws, and bringing to bear a variety of tactics to pressure lawmakers into doing what he wanted in behalf of blacks.
Taking cases to court may or may not constitute being involved in the political process. It isn't if one is charged with a crime and one simply defends against the charge. It is if one's intention in bringing a case is to get laws changed -- which the Society has done many times. The intent to change law is by definition being involved in politics.
The Watchtower Society does some of the same political things as King did. Therefore, it has involved itself in politics.
: Jehovah's Witnesses simply want to have freedom to worship.
Sure, and their involvment in the political process is one means to get that freedom in the various countries where their freedom has been restricted.
The point -- which you continue to ignore -- is that the Witnesses themselves loudly proclaim that they're not involved in politics, which is demonstrably untrue. Saying one thing and doing another is hypocrisy.
I think it's interesting that the Watch Tower Society's management team is prone to taking a proactive posture toward associating with their stated enemies on an interfaith as well as a political level. They're often being seen associating with those they condemn.
I think a billion dollar business pretending to be a government is most comfortable associating with other billion dollar businesses and other governments.
Imo what most JWs call "politics" is actually the institutional structure and working of democracy. After all, they hardly think of Bible characters such as Joseph, Mordecai or the kings of Israel as "politicians," do they?
In representative democracy there are several ways to influence the legislative process. One is institutional (the election of representatives with a specific, although not mandatory, program). The other is lobbying, which may imply both working on public opinion (especially through the media) and secretly pressuring the decision-makers, unbeknownst to the mass of the voters and taxpayers. The latter is the least "democratic" and, interestingly, the least objectionable to the Watchtower.
The very fact that the WT representatives keep this kind of action secret and duck away as soon as it is revealed is telling. Realpolitik is to be screened away from the candid average publisher who really believes that the entire political system and religious organisations are Satan's realm, and that Jehovah will defend his people provided they stay clean from this world.