Name some "laws" that don't require a "law-giver"

AlmostAtheist

Creationists often point to the subtle balances between "natural laws", arguing that if gravity was a bit stronger/weaker or the weak nuclear force was a shade to the left or right, the universe would be destroyed. And of course they're right. But then they make the statement, "All laws require a Law-Giver."

That just isn't true. Some "laws" are only laws because we see them and give them names. They weren't "given", they just happen.

One such law is the "law of supply and demand". If there's a bunch of widgets on the market, the various suppliers have to battle with each other over price. If there's only a few, or they're sold by only one supplier, then they can charge whatever they want. The law shows that there will be a balance between supply and demand, held in place by price or quality or whatever. "Law", but no "law-giver".

What other examples of such laws are there? Have you ever presented this to one of these "laws require law-giver's"-types, and if so what response did you get?

Dave

AuldSoul

Dave: "law of supply and demand"

First, how are you?

Second, I think saying this had no origin isn't technically accurate. This "law" (which may be a misnomer, in any case) is a principle of economics that is but only exists in an economy. Bartering, at a minimum, is necessary for this "law" to exist. Therefore, it was created (or "given") by whoever started bartering. "Bartering" is specifically the setting of conditions on the receipt of goods, trading a good or service for a good or service.

According to the Bible, who was the first barterer?

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

ballistic

In two words, Anthropic Principle. Lifeforms in a universe which doesn't support life cannot ask, "Why does our gravity make life impossible?" because the lifeforms don't exist.

Everything about our universe which makes life possible, enables us to ask the question.

AlmostAtheist

>> First, how are you?

I'm bumbling along nicely, thanks! And how are you, good sir?

>> Second, I think saying this had no origin isn't technically accurate. This "law" (which may be a misnomer, in any case) is a principle of economics that is but only exists in an economy. Bartering, at a minimum, is necessary for this "law" to exist.

There's a fine distinction, but I think it's appropriate to make. The so-called "law" emerges from the economy, it isn't "made" by it. The first barterer didn't sit down and draw up the "law", it emerged spontaneously. Once we saw it, we gave it a name. But it came along on its own.

Gravity wouldn't exist without matter. It's an emergent property of bringing a bunch of matter together. This "law" no more requires some intelligent being to jot it down before it can exist, than the economic law we're discussing. In both cases, they are just what happens. At least that's my take on it. Your mileage may vary. See your dealer for details.

Equally respectfully, ;-)

Dave

parakeet

Most natural laws are descriptive, i.e. given names after long observation of their effects, such as gravity.

Most manmade laws are prescriptive, designed to prevent or punish behaviors known to be detrimental to society.

ballistic

Yes, natural laws are the way we describe the apparent behaviour of systems caused by the underlying physical charcteristics.

AlmostAtheist

>>Most manmade laws are prescriptive

True, but I'm not really looking for man-made laws here, like "don't spit on the sidewalk". I'm looking for things we call "laws" that are really just names for things we see that happen on their own.

Dave

AlmostAtheist

Here's another "law": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Dave

AuldSoul

The "law" of gravity is a description of an effect. The same is true of the "law" of supply and demand.

It isn't a law in the sense of legislation. However, if God created matter, God create the effect we call gravity. Effects have origin, and if we are going to call a description of an effect a "law" then the "law" originates with (i.e. is given by, comes forth from, is born of, is produced by) whatever it is that produced the effect described by the "law."

And how are you, good sir?

Not too sure the highlighted portion applies...but I have had better and worse days. I am above ground, breathing without the aid of medical apparatii <grin>, the sun is shining, I hear birds chirping...so I must be doing fairly well.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

LtCmd.Lore

Yes AlmostAtheist I believe your argument is extremely valid. I like it, and I'll probably use it.

When people say 'physical laws' they meen things that we can always count on as a result of certain events. Since they are so dependable and always uccur, people call them 'laws'. (Not a preticularly good word for them I know.)

Wikipedia: A physical law, scientific law, or a law of nature is a scientific generalization based on empirical observations of physical behavior. They are typically conclusions based on repeated scientific experiments over many years, and which have become accepted universally within the scientific community.

It's the same way with the 'law' you mentioned 'law of supply and demand' It's not a real law it's just called one by some people because it's so certain that it works every time. Nobody invented it, it's just a fact.

Law of Demand: As prices fall for a particular good or service, the demand for that item will increase. Vice-versa. (No government or individual had to say 'If a price falls you must buy more stuff or go to jail.')

Law of Supply: As the price of a particular good or service increases, the supply for that item will also be increased. Vice-versa. (Same thing, nobody had to specificaly say 'It's now the law, when something is expensive, buy less.')

These 'laws' just occur on their own when certian conditions are met. (IE. people sell stuff.)

Same with the physical 'laws' when a lot of mass get together, they have more gravity.

So when people say "All laws require a Law-Giver." they are wrong and right...

REAL laws require a law giver: Law is the set of rules or norms of conduct which forbid, permit or mandate specified actions and relationships among people and organizations.

But things that happen just because certain conditions are met are not real laws, call them what you will, they are just truths theories or facts.

Unless of course said creationist believes that the planets and ateriods are sentient beings that will be punished if they disobey the law... If someone says that to you, just stop arguing and walk away... carefully... 'cause your not gonna get anywhere.

Name some "laws" that don't require a "law-giver"

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