Free Will vs. Destiny preordination n : (theology) being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind) [syn: predestination, foreordination, predetermination] free will 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will. 2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces. Herein the definitions lies the absurdity of mainstreams Christians. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to that say ?everything happens for a reason?, ?its all part of a greater plan?, ?when its your time to go... its your time to go?. These comments, and many others, imply that many Christians believe in a destiny, or a preordaining of events. Everything is controlled by God, and thought out as in a chess game. This is in a direct and unresolvable conflict with the concept of ?free will?. Here is my thought: if we are indeed influenced by spirits in a preordained environment then free will can not exist. I could choose not to cooperate with the spiritual forces of destiny thereby creating a necessity, an utmost and undeniable need, for removing my free will so in turn I have no choice but to fall into the game plan. However, if you believe in free will, then you also remove God's influence, both good or punishing, altogether. You also remove ?the Devil's? influence as well. No one is forced to do anything, which means that we can be offered incentives, but no action to directly effect our decisions. In turn, speaking in tounges, holy spirit casting out demons, demonic possession, water from rocks, seas parting, and staffs turning into snakes are all removed because this is a direct influence on our free will; our right to choose in an unbiased light. Also the numerous influences from Jesus and Yahweh are quite unbalanced against the sporadic demonic possessions. God could do everything imaginable: raise the dead, rain fire from heaven, levitate people, cure disease, flood the whole Earth... and Satan could make people drool and freak out. Is this an unbiased example of free will? Obviously not, so to me it seems that predestination has been taught and reinforced for a long time before free will showed up on the scene. (I admit I am not a scholar but these are just simple observations) Is it really our free and unbiased choices when God and the Devil are constantly displaying vivid powers on Earth? God: ?I can do this for man!? Devil: ?I can do THIS for man!? God: ?Look here!? Devil: ?No, look here!? In light of all these points the question remains: why is it that many Christians believe in two completely opposing theologies? And how can free will stand to the crushing evidence of constant and direct interference?
Free Will vs. Destiny
by Morocco 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Morocco
i swear... if i cant figure out how to FORMAT im going to go crazy!
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peacefulpete
Good observations Morocco. Free will is a relatively recent notion, the gods/spirits were puppeteers for most of human history. Free Will was arrived upon by both the philosophers desire to define deity as something that merited worship and alternately it was born from a materialist view of the universe governed by cause and effect. Whoever thought of it first, it had appeal. Early Christian writers differed as usual of the subject. Augustine is often viewed as one of the first to explicitly attempt to harmonize free will with the dogma of an all loving, all knowing God. Its been a long time since I read his arguments but I recall feeling very disappointed. This question is one of many that arise when the rational mind tries to accomodate an irrational concept like omniscience. The evolving character of gods/God has followed 2 steps behind the human progress in critical/scientific thinking. For postmodernist believers God can no longer be the All wise and All powerful, they reinvent him as merely a powerful pawn in a game he may or may not have started. Consider the usual depictions in movies of the last 30 years. That new face of God is not the result of lack of belief but the result of the need for God to not be a contradiction.
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XJW4EVR
I think that one must define both the terms "free" and "will."
What is the "will?" And what is it "free" from?
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gaiagirl
I don't see "evidence" for either God or Satan interfering in the lives of humans. People set chains of events in motion, which have consequences on themselves, or on other people. This isn't destiny, its simply cause and effect. For example, say that I choose to cross the street against the lights, and make a habit of this. Eventually, I am extremely likely to be struck by a car. It was not my destiny to be struck by a car, and God didn't send a car to strike me down. Being struck was a consequence of my own actions.
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LittleToe
gg:
Ya mean like being struck by a stingray, after playing with alligators?
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IP_SEC
space time is a continuum. everything that ever has or ever will happen already exists within that continuum to the smallest detail. has nothing to do with gods. it just is.
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Narkissos
People set chains of events in motion, which have consequences on themselves, or on other people. This isn't destiny, its simply cause and effect. For example, say that I choose to cross the street against the lights, and make a habit of this. Eventually, I am extremely likely to be struck by a car. It was not my destiny to be struck by a car, and God didn't send a car to strike me down. Being struck was a consequence of my own actions.
Sure... but could you really? Would you? Why wouldanother do what youwouldn't?
A very Calvinist theologian once told me that the most questionable notion is that of possibility.
I can deem it materially possible for me to go out this afternoon and murder a dozen of people at random. However I wouldn't do it. Because I choose not to? I can delude myself into thinking that, but actually there are a number of educational, psychological, and social factors that make it impossible to me now -- I might do it someday, but only with the actual happening would the possibility appear for sure. And then any evidence for the possibility of not doing it at that point of time would immediately disappear.
Distinguishing possibility from actuality can only be done by ignoring a number of causal factors -- tiny, imponderable, yet real.
Destiny and freedom are two symmetrical abstractions around a frustrating tautology: what happens happens.
There is no room in the universe for destiny to be written in -- such a writing of destiny should then be written elsewhere, and so on ad infinitum. There is no room either for a true "freedom" to work inasmuch as every cause is also an effect of multiple causes, ad infinitum too.
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peacefulpete
We don't often think in terms of "free will" for the animal world, perhaps because we ponder less the input they individually contribute to their fates. We prefer to imagine our higher intellect isolates us from the rest of the animate environment. Animals OTOH are viewed as "programmed" to act out in response to stimuli. Clearly neither of these are a full expression of the facts. Humans are essentially exceptionally adaptable animals. We both act out in programmed responses to stimuli and yet are capable of limited modifications of the programming. Our core programming indentifies us as humans its true, and without this underlying program the term "human nature" would be meaningless, but our (and to lesser extent other animals') brains have evolved the all important ability to survive in an ever changing environment. Destiny, with this understanding of the world, is human denial of their adaptabilty, a denial of individuality. Because adaptability and individuality are evident, there is no such thing as destiny.
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ellderwho
In light of all these points the question remains: why is it that many Christians believe in two completely opposing theologies?
Obvisously the percentage is lopsided in the Arminian/Calvin issue, because "free will" notion allows man to control his relationship with God. And its a friendly message from the pulpit. Thus more people tend to embrace it.
The other is not so friendly of a message. And its difficult for man to release the control aspect to God. And less appealing, rendering it the smaller camp.