Could this really be the TRUTH?

by purplesofa 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • purplesofa

    An explanation of the Genesis account

    This is from a friend of mine that is not a baptised JW. He was raised by a JW mother, unbelieving father. He is late 30's. I have watched him struggle on making a decision as to whether he will dedicate his life as a JW for 6 years, since I have met him. Recently, he told me he thought he was going to do something about the truth.

    God cannot create something that is absolutely perfect. To do so would be to clone himself, and inifinity itself. That is why the bible says of creation 'and he saw that it was good' it never says he saw it was perfect. The statement itself implies that the possibility of it not being good. The closest god can come to creating perfection is something that chooses to be parallel on a lower plane to his own perfection. Free will is necesary in the equation. I think we can only be perfect through love. Not the same as god who is absolute, and intrinsically perfect, but through love we become something of a mirror image of this, which is what Jesus was trying to show all along. We do not reach some higher plane where we become incapable of sin, we simply reach our god given level of feeling ,and understanding that is parallel to god's plane where we choose not to sin. Then we become parallel to god's purpose, we bond with it, and to him. Adam and Eve apart from Jesus were the only perfect humans. We are born imperfect which implies that we unlike them are not only imperfect but also defective. So if we are defective what makes us this way? What is the cause of our imperfection? It would seem something that was, is now missing. The answer goes back to what is necesary to the equation. 'free will'

    The tree of the knowledge of good and bad was itself the link to god, because it offered us a choice, it allowed us our free will in it's most fundamental form. We seem to look at it as something evil or negative today, but it was in fact our neutral link to god himself. The consquences were not something god made up when he said 'in the day you eat from it you will positively die'. The consequence being death was a warning to something beyond god's control. God had to destroy them afterward, he had no choice. Why? Because if you create something and give it free will it is inherently accountable to everything else by the choices it makes. The alternative is take away everything from it so that it has nothing and so there is no accountability. This is in fact what death is. I think Adam and Eve fully understood this, and by understanding this they were held to a higher accountability. Satan exploited the fact that it was something beyond god's control and deceivingly shown it as god's weakness. So I see it as pure deception on Satan's part when he said they would become like god. Adam and Eve were probably aware that this tree represented something so vast that even god must obey it's meaning. Satan saw this as an opportunity to exploit Jehovah. This mere tree is greater than Jehovah? Ha eat from it and become like him.

    Because Jehovah created, he has humbled himself to something that he has no choice but to abide by. As the bible says he does not wish to destroy anyone, but there is none higher and so the consquences of maintaining the balance rest on his shoulders. He is complete within himself and purely capable of administering this judgement, even if it pains him to do so, it will not interfere with the outcome. Because in the end the choice is ours not his.

    So just maybe the meaning of all of this is that we exist in the best possible world. Not as it is now of course but as it was meant to be. Can we imagine something better? To be fair no we cannot. What we can imagine are better things within the frame of our understanding, but as for the whole picture we cannot possibly comprehend what it takes to make it all work. But maybe.. just maybe.... oneday in some very distant point in time we may become so in tune that we are capable of transformation into something else. God's plan surely does not stop with simply populating. We are here to grow, and evolve into something that is absolute on it's own plane. True perfection perhaps. No matter what it is, it is something beyond what god could create initially because it ends up being a choice we make. Jehovah is the source who has set it all in motion, we are the ones (with his direction) who must make it happen. It's like a parent to a child, you give them life, yet it is up to them to become something you could not initially give them.

    I also wanted to add something else I was thinking about.

    The tree of the knowledge of good and bad was neccesary . I think it is possible that any other sin Jehovah could have corrected the consequences of himself. No other sin would degrade us beyond the point that Jehovah could not correct our way. In fact sin did not exist because Jehovah could intervene directly in our lives, and balance things in our lives. Perhaps this would be the tree of life spoken of in the bible. So many things we think of as sin today, were in fact not sins at all for Adam and Eve. But once they chose to break away from Jehovah, this all changed. That is why the law became a curse to the people... they could not possibly live by a law that accounted for all of the things Jehovah would correct the consequences of had they been as Adam and Eve. But anyway... there had to be something absolute, something beyond even god's ability to correct, some choice that was ultimately ours alone. Jehovah made it as simple as possible for our sake, so that we would hardly desire it in a natural way. He simply made it a tree!

  • moshe

    The tree of the knowledge of good and bad was neccesary .

    Only the beasts of the field have not tasted of that tree. They have no right or wrong , just instinct. So at what point did man's ancestors cross over from creatures of instinct to Humans with morals, a conscience and a reasoning mind? Perhaps this already happened to dinosaurs like T-Rex. They were wicked and didn't listen to God and failed to develop a conscience, so God nuked them all with an asteroid and started over. Far out isn't it?

  • Narkissos

    What strikes me in this almost-JW rambling is that it makes God something short of God. A god, in effect, who cannot do a number of things, who is subject to necessity and a host of abstract concepts like morality, freedom or logic. This probably a problem with most kinds of theology, but the simplistic JW-like "reasoning on the scriptures" makes it very obvious.

  • Geronimo

    "Free Will" is one of the most cherished of human dogmas. Despite overwhelming evidence from genetics and every branch of science that we are completely predetermined--as is every other part of the physical universe—many humans insist upon clinging to this unfounded dogma. They mistakenly believe this dogma is necessary to their happiness, when in fact it adds to their misery and to the misery of all humanity.

    For example, mental illness—even in these "enlightened" times—is looked upon as a defect in character, as a "choice" the mentally ill person has made to be mentally ill!

    Many people shun the handicapped because of a secret loathing, a loathing stemming from a false belief that the handicapped person somehow deserved to be born that way or—even more nonsensical—chose to be born that way. Millions of overweight and obese individuals hate themselves and their bodies because society has convinced them they're fat by choice, when in fact obesity is both a genetic and environmental factor. Hundreds of millions of gay individuals are made to feel loathsome, being told they "chose" to be gay, when in actuality gayness is genetic. Predetermined. Every character flaw that we have is looked upon as a choice of free will by nearly all Americans, when in actuality such "flaws" are the result of our genetics or our environment, or both, and hence not a choice at all.

    Take a moment with me and let's put on our thinking caps and examine this free will dogma a bit more closely. Did you choose your parents? Did you choose the genetic features that you would inherit? Did you choose your eyesight and the color of your eyes and hair or voice or height? Did you choose the personalities of your parents that you would inherit? Did you choose their parenting styles and skills? Did you choose where they would raise you? In what house or apartment you would be raised? The cuisine you would consume? Did you choose your siblings? Did you choose your school? Did you choose what children you would have available as associates? Did you choose your teachers? Did you choose the curriculum you would have to study? Did you choose the myriad of cultural influences that would shape you, such as religion, language, race? How about television, radio, movies, commercials? Did you of your "own free will" create this earth with its multitude of physical laws by which you are bound? Did you choose your genetic propensities for various activities, such as being good at music or sports?

    Here is an easy-to-understand example of how genetics and environment control whom and what we are: Suppose one is born into a primitive pre industrial society of goat-herders. One has been born with a talent for mathematics far greater than the world has ever seen. Yet, because of the environment, that genetic ability will never be developed beyond the need for counting goats. So I ask…

    Does your "free will" enable you to make a decision that, "Henceforth I do not need to breathe, nor drink, nor eat, nor sleep! I choose gravity to no longer bind me. I freely choose to live forever and to fly through space and time like Superman." Or are you as bound by these laws as anyone else? Obviously, then, if "free will" exists at all, it is a very minor thing, it's sphere of freedom being very tiny indeed! So small as to not be relevant in anything that went into determining anything about you, because your genetics and environment were completely out of your hands. The more you ponder all the causes and conditions that went into making you "you" the more evident it becomes that you are a predetermined being by genetics and environment, and are further constricted by the myriad physical laws of the universe.

    The simple fact, difficult especially for Americans to comprehend because Americans in general shun thinking in difficult critical terms—preferring instead knee-jerk reactions—is that free will is simply not possible. In order for our wills to be truly free, they would have to be outside the chain of cause-and-effect, or else will is not truly free. If will has a cause, then it is merely an effect, and is therefore not truly free. If we remove will from the chain of cause and effect—which we must or else will is not free—then will becomes an effect without a cause. There are no effects without causes. Such a notion is nonsensical, an oxymoron, just as is speaking of a square circle or frozen fire.
    The moment you admit that anything limits or determines or directs a choice, it has ceased to be free. I reiterate: In order to be free, truly free and not just seemingly free, will must be completely detached from the chain of cause-and-effect. Will then becomes and effect without a cause; something idiotic, just as idiotic as Superman flying without a motor and the laws of aerodynamics. In other words, it enters the realm of fantasy, for that is what "free will" is. It's a comic-book fantasy. Yes, there are cause-and effect reasons why this fantasy is found in many cultures, though far from all. Most of the world's cultures, from antiquity to the present., recognize that human will is not free, being as predetermined as any other facet of nature.

    Rather then being dis-empowering, as many people fear, accepting the reality of cause-and-effect is empowering! Exorcising the spook of "free will" from ones mind frees one to accept oneself as one is! I can hear an angry person say, "I'll prove to you my will is free! I'll jump up and down on one foot and sing The Star Spangled Banner backwards!" Again, let's put on our thinking caps and analyze this scenario. What is it in the background, upbringing, and genetics of this person that caused them to react negatively to cause and effect? What genetic and environmental factors gave them a rash temperament and irrational mindset? Where did they get the unusual ability to sing backwards? What are the factors that caused them to formulate their challenge in the form of jumping up and down on one foot? Or singing the Star Spangled Banner? Surely if they had been born in another culture, such as a Taoist, Hindu, or Buddhist culture, they would already understand that everything is part of the chain of cause-and-effect and there would be no inner turmoil or inability to accept the reality of cause-and-effect. Or, if they did, their song of choice would not be The Star Spangled Banner, but another national anthem.

    The more one takes the time to analyze all the causes and conditions that go into the "choices" we make, the more we see that we are in fact links in an infinitely complex chain of cause-and-effect, with no more freedom than anything else. Also, the more we will see how limited our "choices" are by the laws of the universe. Astronauts do not get up in the morning and make a "free choice" that they will ascend into outer space without a rocket and space ship!

    The more one carefully and thoroughly analyzes the free will phantom the more insubstantial it becomes until it finally fades away entirely, to be replaced by the liberating understanding of cause-and-effect. Yes, whether or not one is able to perceive and receive this fact is already predetermined. The entire cosmos and every event, thought, feeling, emotion in it was determined at the moment of the Big Bang when all the physical laws of nature came into existence and began to inexorably unfold the cosmic drama, just like an incomprehensibly gigantic domino display. A cosmic drama that you are a part of, just as everyone and everything is!

    So, relax and rest in this knowledge. Accept yourself. Even if that means accepting the fact that you cannot accept yourself!

  • purplesofa



    What a great post. It make me feel so much better about myself.

    After my brother committed suicide I talked to a doctor here about suicide. He said that no matter what.........NO therapy, pills, enviroment, love, job, money..........will keep 40% of children whose parents that commit suicide from doing it themselves. It is genetic. He said it is a proven fact. So as hard as my brother might have fought to keep his life, he had a 40% chance of losing it.

    After reading what you have said about free choice.......about the only free choice we really have is to accept our circumstances and make the best of them.

    A super post.......thanks!


  • DanTheMan

    Gernimo, thou hast spoken wisely

    But, and you alluded to this, to be a strict determinist in our moralistic American culture takes constant effort, more than what I'm able to put forth.

  • purplesofa

    I was chatting with another poster about this topic....this is what they said

    so you're only creating meaning, you're not *discovering* meaning

    I think that is what this friend of mine is doing.

  • Geronimo

    Hello PurpleSofa and DanTheMan. I confess to a pleasant surprise that the post was received in a positive manner. You are more than welcome PurpleSofa, and I am deeply glad you are able to derive some comfort in the matter of the suicide of your brother. Your doctor is a compassionate being. Dan, yes, I agree, it's difficult. Very difficult. G

  • JamesThomas

    Your friend is on to something in his second sentence where he connects God with infinity; then his mind gets the better of him and he loses it.

    Infinity, is that which has no beginning and no end; that which no thing and no one can be separate from. He is unaware of holding the precious key he uttered in his second sentence, and so does not stop there and dissolve into the hugeness and immediacy of what his own words point to. Instead he continues on about a small biblical idea-god which is just a tiny meandering fragment somewhere within the mind, and gets lost in a fairytale of his own making.


  • kerj2leev


    So are you saying we are slaves to genetics?

Share this