Disgusting Thing - 3rd attempt.

by proplog2 20 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    When you catch sight of the disgusting thing...standing where it
    ought not...then know that the desolating of her has drawn
    near...Get out of her my people if you do not want to share with
    her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her
    plagues.

    I have long believed that IF (perhaps a bigger IF at this point in
    my life) the Bible's prophetic words are true then we could expect
    the Great Tribulation to be signaled by some kind of extraordinary
    act of terrorism on the United States and most likely New York
    (symbol of the US economic might) and/or Washington DC (seat of
    government). Before I go into how this current event fits the
    definition of a signal event I need to explain some background to
    the applicable scriptures.

    If you have a JW background you will notice that I have mixed four
    scriptures here. Matt 24:15;Mark 13:14;Luke 21:20;Revelation 18:4
    I mix these two prophecies because they both require EXTREME action
    on the part of those who "discern" the identity of the foretold
    signal. Jehovah's Witnesses have not yet come to a proper
    understanding of these scriptures. Instead they have been side-
    tracked by two false assumptions. They have believed that 1. Flight
    is symbolic and 2. Babylon the Great is the world empire of false
    religion.

    First let's consider their problem with understanding the nature of
    the "flight" and whether it is literal or merely symbolic.

    FLIGHT - GEOGRAPHICAL OR SYMBOLIC

    The May 1 1999 Watchtower came out with some "new light" on the
    scripture at Matthew 24:15,16 Unfortunately this was a patchwork
    change that created more questions than it answers.

    First let's look at the text under discussion.

    Matthew 24:15,16 "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting
    thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the
    prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment)
    then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."

    For years the Watchtower has said that this scripture has
    application in our day and that it is necessary for individuals to
    flee from false religion to the true religion. In other words they
    used to claim that this is not a literal flight but a symbolic
    flight. Now they are saying in paragraph 19 on page 18 of
    Watchtower May 1, 1999 that "Jesus' disciples certainly need no
    warning about fleeing from one religion to another; they had
    already become true Christians."

    I guess this straightens out what they said previously in the
    Watchtower of June 1st 1996 "This flight to safety is NOT a
    geographic move, such as Jewish Christians made when abandoning
    Jerusalem. It is a flight to the place of safety within Jehovah's
    theocratic organization."

    Basically the same thing was repeated in Aug 15 1996 "Will You Be
    Saved When God Acts"

    P. 20 "We can rest assured, though, that God's chosen ones and
    their associates will not be in the danger zone, at risk of being
    killed. Oh, they WILL NOT HAVE FLED TO ONE GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION.
    First-Century Christians in Jerusalem could flee from that city to
    the mountainous region, such as Pella across the Jordan. In the
    future, however, God's faithful Witnesses will be located all over
    the globe, so safety and protection will not be based on geographic
    location."

    Now that they have the correct understanding that the flight isn't
    a symbolic change in religion do they now conclude that the flight,
    in reaction to seeing the "disgusting thing standing in a holy
    place", is going to be a geographical flight? Amidst the "new
    light" is the same muddled thinking.

    Here is the latest take on the type of flight meant: Paragraph 22
    page 19 Watchtower May 1, 1999 "We cannot presently have full
    details about the great tribulation, but we can LOGICALLY CONCLUDE
    THAT FOR US THE FLIGHT JESUS SPOKE OF WILL **NOT** BE IN A
    GEOGRAPHICAL SENSE."

    Why do they keep insisting that the future flight will NOT be
    geographical? Is there any other kind of flight than a change in
    location? If you are in harms way and you flee so that you are no
    longer in harms way aren't we talking about a physical-
    geographical- movement away from the "dangerous place" to the "safe
    place"? There are only three ways that you can conceive of flight.
    (1.) You can flee symbolically which is to say you change your
    mental space. (2.) You can flee spatially which means an actual
    geographical flight. (3.) And you can conceptualize a temporal
    flight. If the flight isn't mental or symbolic, and if it isn't
    geographical that leaves temporal flight - flight in time. So are
    they suggesting some sort of time warp?

    They continue in that same Paragraph 22 "God's people are already
    around the globe, virtually in every corner."

    So they think this is the premise for them to "logically conclude
    that for us the flight Jesus spoke of will NOT be in a geographical
    sense."

    The Watchtower argument can be summed up by the following
    SINCE/THEREFORE format:

    SINCE, "First century Christians weren't located "all over the
    globe"
    THEREFORE, "they could flee from that city to the mountainous
    region." and
    SINCE, "In the future, God's faithful Witnesses will be located all
    over the globe" THEREFORE, "safety and protection will not be based
    on geographic location."

    The problem with the SINCE (premise) is that the only way for the
    Christians in Jerusalem to survive was to physically get out of
    Jerusalem. But what about the majority of early Christians. The
    majority of early Christians weren't residents of Jerusalem. The
    command to get out of Jerusalem was not a general command to ALL
    Christians. Christians could be found in large numbers all over the
    Roman Empire and beyond. In fact the Watchtower has stated many
    times that the scripture at Matthew 24:14 had an early fulfillment
    by the time Jerusalem was destroyed.

    Likewise today true Christians might want to look for a parallel to
    ancient Jerusalem from which they could literally flee. Not ALL
    Christians will have to flee. Only those who dwell in some modern
    day counterpart of Jerusalem will have to flee when they see their
    geographical region seriously threatened by the yet to be observed
    "disgusting thing".

    Come on brothers, WAKE UP!! Most likely none of the Governing Body
    or Watchtower writers will see this post. However, if you know any
    of them personally, try to encourage them to get back to the
    drawing board and come up with something a little more coherent.

    BABYLON THE GREAT IS NOT THE WORLD EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION

    I can and have demolished every argument I've encountered that
    tries to defend the idea that Babylon The Great is the world empire
    of false religion. Rather than go over that information I would
    suggest you click on the link to my page that deals with that
    information.

    If Babylon the Great is not World Religion what is it? It is the
    wealthiest entity on the face of the earth. It is the United
    States that lives in shameless luxury. It is the United States
    that has committed "fornication" deals with ruling elites around
    the world. It has deceived the whole world with its economic
    system. It sits as a hegemon - "And the woman whom you saw means
    the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."
    Rev. 17:18. The United States has lived a protected life isolated
    by two great "waters/oceans". It sits like ancient Babylon on a
    moat-it is an island. "In her heart she keeps saying 'I sit a
    queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning'. That is
    why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and
    famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because
    Jehovah God, who judge her is strong." Rev. 18:7,8.

    It should be easy to see why Jehovah's Witnesses would not come to
    realize the true identity of Babylon the Great until the crucial
    moment when flight would be necessary. The Bible clearly says that
    God's people are to get out of Babylon the Great. Let's say they
    understood that 50 years ago. Jehovah's witnesses would have felt
    very uncomfortable hanging around here anticipating the time when
    they would have to leave.

    WORLD TRADE CENTER DESTRUCTION & THE SIGNAL TO LEAVE

    The "Disgusting thing standing in a holy place" was the beginning
    of the attack on Jerusalem. Had it continued at its initial pace
    Jerusalem and all of its inhabitants would have been destroyed a
    lot earlier than 70CE. We need to be careful in looking for a
    modern homologue to the events of the 1st Century. It is for good
    reason that the readers of Jesus' prophecy are told to use
    discernment. (Matt. 24:15).

    A discerning individual needs some kind of standard to evaluate
    events to see if they fit. If Jehovah's Witnesses are to take
    flight from the USA/Babylon The Great, there can't be any false
    alarms. The signal would have to be truly "significant".
    Remember, the signal does not constitute the destruction of Babylon
    the Great/USA. The signal must merely indicate that desolation has
    drawn near. How near? In the 1st Century "near" gave the
    Christians over three years to act on the signal. Perhaps the same
    would be now. Things appeared to return to normal after the Roman
    army withdrew, although there would be a background of uneasiness
    about the possibility of the Roman legions returning.

    How "significant" was the terrorist attack last week? Consider
    some of the headlines from around the world. Most of them carry
    apocalyptic references - some even speaking of Armageddon. All of
    them indicate that this marks a change in the panorama of world
    politics. Sweeping changes lie ahead. We all live in a new era.
    Time will now be measured from this point - before the attack and
    after the attack. You could not have a more significant attack on
    the United States short of a direct attack by a powerful state
    intent on destroying the country. There would be no pause allowing
    Christians to take flight if this were an attack by some
    government. But the symbolic power of this attack is as bad as a
    nuclear attack. It illustrates that the USA has done some very bad
    things and there is a desire by certain governments to destroy the
    USA.

    DECIDING TO LEAVE THE USA

    I will not leave the USA unless there is some organization that
    sponsors such a move. Like most people I don't have the courage of
    my convictions. This is something that requires serious
    consideration and discussion among those who are supposed to be
    leaders. It has taken me twenty years of considering the
    prophecies verse by verse. Frankly, I have been obsessed. But I
    believe my scenario is much more coherent than the Watchtower and
    actually explains why it has been necessary that they not
    understand until the appropriate time.

    I know this much. JW's have completed their work in this country.
    They have a continent of brothers and sisters to the south that
    would take them into their homes. Does the governing body have the
    courage to make a decision like this?

  • logical
    logical

    Hi, interesting thoughts.

    Babylon the Great is something that has many people guessing at it. Some say the catholic church, some, like yourself say the USA, some say the UK, some say ALL religion.

    This is my understanding (which may or may not be correct).

    Looking at Revelation 18

    Babylon the Great (BtG) FELL, and became a dwelling place for demons. She committed fornication. Which means that BtG once was loyal to Jah, but "fell" and spiritually fornicated with the nations.

    Verses 4-6 warns to God's people to get out of her.

    She glorified herself and lives in shameless luxury - yes, she sits as a queen, mistakenly thinks she will never be a widow, and she will never see mourning.

    The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and the "anointed", sits as "queen", mother organisation above Jehovahs Witnesses, she still thinks she is in God's favour, she thinks she will pass into paradise. However, in one day her plagues will come, as the beast she committed fornication with, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, turns on her and devours her.

    Biblical support for BtG being those annointed who prove false to their claims: Matthew 23:33-39. Notice how Jesus told the Pharisees that how they behave is how the blood of all the rightous spilled comes to be upon them?

    Maybe im wrong here... but there has been a disgusting "counterfeit" standing in a holy place for 70 years now. The Watchtower Bible & Tract society. Maybe this is not the same thing though.

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    hey proplog. i was thinking of you and your long history of prophetic interpretation centered on the US this past week. i was sure that this would be the signal you were looking for and that you would make good on your oft-repeated promise to get out of the mainland US when you saw it.

    just curious why you seem to have waffled now. are you at least packing?

    mox

  • WildHorses
    WildHorses

    Verses 4-6 warns to God's people to get out of her.

    She glorified herself and lives in shameless luxury - yes, she sits as a queen, mistakenly thinks she will never be a widow, and she will never see mourning.

    Logical, I believe this to be talking about all religions. Look at the history of religions. More people have been murdered, molested, guilt ridden in the name of Religion.

    I tend to think that faith should be a personal thing between God and Man. Most people when I talk to them about this, tell me "well, you have to go to Church to congragate". Not so, for the Bible even tells us that "any three gathered in my name, there I will be". Whenever we gather with friends, or family, or even stranges in the Name of Jesus, we are not forsaking the gatherings.

    If we put our faith in man to teach us, rather than the Holy Spirit, we are bound to be mislead.

    Just my thoughts.

    Lilacs

  • teejay
    teejay

    A bit of advice, proplog2: tend to your retirement plan. We're going to be here for a long time. And a long time after that.

    tj

  • Tatiana
    Tatiana

    I totally agree with logical. Satan's ultimate irony (and a big spit in the eye of God) would be to have an organization here on earth that is the ONLY one who uses God's name. What a big joke!
    From what I've seen and experienced being a witness since the age of two and having a mother and grandmother who were lifelong witnesses and an anointed uncle, this religion appears to be "beautiful" to outsiders, just like Satan. But once you are deep inside the bowels of this cult, you see it for what it truly is. Satan's organization on earth.

    April

    "Love never dies." Voivodul Vlad Draculea (from Bram Stoker's Dracula-1992)

  • teejay
    teejay

    ... there has been a disgusting "counterfeit" standing in a holy place for 70 years now. The Watchtower Bible & Tract society.

    Sorry, Logical, but the WTS never occupied a 'holy place.' Therefore it could not fit the biblical desrciption of BtG.

    tj

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    MOXY:

    I won't leave unless some significant organization leads the way.

    The Bible prophecies have a recipient target - "holy ones". I don't consider myself holy by any stretch of the imagination. But, JW's have spent over 100 years as neutral (want to avoid the word "alien" at this point) residents preaching about the Great Tribulation and its closeness.

    Basically, I don't have the resources to make a move to another country. A worldwide brotherhood however could provide the infrastructure for ordinary people to leave the USA.

  • waiting
    waiting

    Well, I tend to think that if the Bible isn't reliable historically, etc., etc., - then a greater fullfillment to Revelation might not be accurate either.

    I would assume that there will be more prophets coming forth after this terrorist attack. Maybe one of them will be correct. Maybe not.

    Guess I'll stay in South Carolina.

    waiting

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Waiting:

    The Bible is a very strange book. Full of myth & legend. However, it has a general theme that centers around the most important question: How is Earth supposed to be ruled?

    There is a sequence of events in Daniel & Revelation that match correlates today.

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