Hi all,
Thanks for your replies.
freetosee - Thankfully, his uncle is not the PO!
fullofdoubtnow - I do expect the elder to lie when he accuses him, because otherwise he clearly has no cause for complaint. This is why I want to act as a Witness.
Ann - Unfortunately our next CO visit is going to be with a new CO, so I am yet to meet him.
sspo - I think this is what I'm going to suggest for now. That we go to another elder together and explain the situation and ask him to speak to him. Though I expect the elder in question to defend himself by lying. If this doesn't work, then I think a letter to the Society will be the only solution. I'm not sure if it will do anything, even if the BOE is not impressed, he's not going to become an MS anytime soon anyway, so I don't think it makes much difference. This isn't the first problem there's been, and unless something is done, it won't be the last.
I reckon that if my friend moved to another Congregation he would be an MS in 6 months - a year. The problem is that he has many studies in the Congregation which he does not want to lose, so I guess he's stuck as he is for now.
Thanks again,
Zico
Problem with an elder
by Zico 42 Replies latest jw friends
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Zico
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darkuncle29
I think your friend needs to go to Radio Shack and purchase a little tape recorder, and use that for all discusions with his loving uncle. BTW, where is his father or mother, thwy should have some say with their sibling, or know how to deal with him.
I agree, if an elder has it in for you, whatch your back, and what you say or do.
If the elders stick together, as is likely, then writing the society is the last bet. Make sure to have lots of information and not to sound like a "whiny" little publisher/sheep.
What is the business of his uncle? Alot of elders I knew were very ruthless businessmen, often cutting legal corners.
From what you've said your friend is just a simple honest person. Good for him. That will not help him in this situation. Trying to be an honorable person when dealing with dishonorable individuals will only defeat you in the end.
It might help for your friend to clarify what his intentions and goals are. Does he want to be an MS, Pionere, publisher...or would he just like to live in peace.
Also, try if you can, help your friend to "see" the big picture of how the elders and the org operate. You probably can't tell him, but help him really see it for what it is; a huge rotten lie. Does he really think that Jesus would have anything to do with a group of men who would behave this way? Who are these guys more like: The Apostles or the Pharisees?
Good Luck
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LittleToe
I can't believe I'm giving this advise, but it may give others an insight into how things work, so here we go:
When there's an Elder on your back who evidently has power-trip issues you are in for trouble. If it's a family member then you're doubly sunk, as it takes some effort to fall out with family, resulting in a feud.
If your friend wants to have alcohol at his party, or do anything else that this Elder disapproves of, then he needs to watch his back every step. By all means serve alcohol, but it will have to be policed so that he can give an account later. If ANYTHING goes wrong at the party he will be hung out to dry.
He should go to the PO of the congregation and ask what he might do to "reach out". If the PO is even half a man he should step up to the plate and let him know what is really on the Body of Elders mind in taking him off as a Pioneer. This will not have been the Uncles sole decision, as it's made by the Service Committee of PO, Secretary, and Service Overseer (of which I'm going to guess the Unlce may be one.
If he wants to progress he will have to ingratiate himself with the new CO, and hope that the CO asks why he isn't being used. The CO will be examining all the Publisher record cards when he visits. If there are any high-hour publishers, who aren't Pioneering, he will want to know why!
Meanwhile he will have to show himself humble, meek, and under subjection every step of the way. If he gets a backbone and back-chats any of the Elders, especially if a JC is convened on trumped up charges, his ass will be grass.
Welcome to the bOrg[anization] - you have been assimilated...
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Frannie Banannie
I had a problem with a BOE at one point. They included the PO and the City Overseer in their "witch hunt" against me. They were planning to DF me. After I made them leave my home, I didn't consult them anymore, because I KNEW I hadn't done anything wrong. I just phoned Bethel. Briefly outlined the situation and the elders' behavior towards me.
The person at Bethel told me to sit down and write a letter to the Gov. Body, explaining in detail the whole situation. I told the local BOE, PO and City Overseer what the person had said. I then wrote the letter, including plenty of scriptures that supported me in what had occurred. I then made copies for all the BOE, the PO and the City Overseer and passed them out at the next meeting. There was not a damned thing the locals could do until Bethel answered my letter. As someone mentioned in a previous post, the Gov. Body answered my letter in writing to the locals. I was then told the outcome.....which was that the locals were not to harrass me anymore about anything concerning the issues raised in their "witch hunt." :)
Frannie
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Zico
Darkuncle – The tape recorder is a good idea! Though I’m not sure he’ll go for it. Are there any rules against this? His parents don’t go to meetings anymore, although they’re not disfellowshipped, the uncle won’t talk to them anymore. His uncle’s a postman, so not much of a businessman!
Littletoe – His uncle is the secretary. Before taking him off, he actually went round and asked people if he was lying about his hours, so he could have something against him! He failed though, which is why he was forced into using such a minor problem. I actually thought of this when I read Crisis of Conscience, where the elders tried to find something against Ray after his appeal against the disfellowshipping decision.
I used to think that the problems within our Congregation were just a local thing. How naïve! From reading that book, and reading this board, I can see that the lack of love really is an international problem.
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tijkmo
invite an elder to the party
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Dismembered
Greetings Zico
:I'm sure this sounds quite unbelievable, but really, it is true! Basically, what I wanted to ask, is what my options are.
Not to me it doesn't. What you've posted that idiot "elder" said, sums up in a nut-shell just what those arrogant power-mongering toilet scrubbers are all about. Unlike the dirty toilets many of them scrub, they think their feces doesn't stink.
Dismembered
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Zico
Just to update the situation: Originally the elder told my friend that he could not serve alcohol at his party without an elder present. He told my friend that if he went ahead with the event, he would take it to the body of elders and hold a judicial committee. Obviously the elder has no grounds to do this, my friend knew it, and called him up on it, he sought the advice of many elders and phoned Bethel, who said there was no reason why he couldn’t have alcohol at his party. (Nobody who is going to be at the party is really a heavy drinker, it’s not really a big issue, he’s just proving a point)
Due to the approach that was taken by my friend, the elder is now trying to get him on causing divisions in the Congregation, and disobeying authority. The elder said he was just expressing a concern and that his nephew has blown everything out of proportion. A committee has been set up to deal with my friend. One of the elders phoned him up to inform him of this last night. I told him to request a letter from the committee detailing the committee members, the time and place of the meeting, and the charges. The elder he spoke to has agreed to do this, but he did confirm over the phone, that his uncle, the power mad elder, was actually on the Committee! They actually made the prosecutor a judge! Crazy! I have told him that once he receives his letter he should write a letter back to the committee informing them that he is not happy with this choice, and request a change in the committee.
Thankfully, we have a source on the inside! That is, the Uncle’s daughter, who is a bit of a gossip, and is very easy to get information out of! The uncle ALWAYS tells his family everything that goes on in meetings, and this is no different. He has told her EVERYTHING. Whilst she wouldn’t tell her cousin anything, she’s told me everything, and I’ve had no hesitation in betraying her trust and taking it back the information the my friend! A lot of the things that the Uncle is saying are lies. He is lying about the conversations he has had with his nephew and the things that have been said. I bought my friend a tape recorder, as suggested to me in this thread. Now he is going to tape every conversation he has with anyone regarding the situation as well as the actual meeting.
We actually have TWO witnesses who can back up that the elder is lying, the problem is, that there two Witnesses are a married couple in their 80s! Whilst this two people wouldn’t lie to a committee, they’ve not really got their wits about them anymore, and could be easily influenced to saying the wrong things. I have heard that in a committee meeting, when Witnesses are called up, the defendant has to leave the room, and the elders do not have to tell him what was said after? Can anyone confirm this? That's awful if it's true! His whole defence has to be built around these people, so he really needs to know what they are saying, and he needs to defend himself if the elders are trying to influence them. Does anyone know?
On the bright side, I’ve constantly been able to talk to my friend about how corrupt the System is. There is no way that this issue would stand up in a court of law, firstly because the ones judging you are anonymous, not appointed men with pre-conceived ideas (They’ve had a full body of elders meeting about the issues, but of course, only heard the side of the uncle, so will no doubt be siding with him prior to the meeting) secondly, because everything that’s been said is just one word against another, and you can never really know who’s telling the Truth, so they would have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Instead I can see them siding with the elder, as the body of elders are all very close. Unless the old couple can remove all doubt. I’ve also pointed out the lack of scriptural support for the Judicial system. All his responses so far have been like ‘Oh well, what can you do?’ He’s obviously afraid to face the issues, which I can understand, but I’ll keep working on him!
This system is a joke. It completely favours the prosecutor, and judges the defendant before the trial begins. I know without a doubt that he has done nothing wrong, yet he is not only having to defend himself, he is fighting a losing battle!
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xjwms
WOW
reading through some of this.......was good for me
confirms.....why I am not "active" any more......sounds like a piece of my PAST.
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Finally-Free
I would do as I did in the past in a similar situation. I would hand the elder a bible and tell him he had 2 choices - either counsel me from the bible or keep his mouth shut. I would tell him no more interference in my personal life would be tolerated. Advise him that this is not a request, but the most dire warning of his worthless life. It got the elders off my ass, but destroyed any chance of having any cult titles bestowed on me. Big fucking deal. I don't require the approval of toilet cleaners.
Ok, my method would not help him make "progress" in the congregation, but giving in to that kind of bullying won't either. Your friend needs to realize that he either needs to tolerate the bullying or get out of the cult. Moving won't help. They'll just send a letter to the new hall trashing his reputation - they did it to me. I assume it's a standard procedure.
An ounce of self respect is worth more than a thousand cult "titles".
W