Let's assume 607 correct.... How can they prove that lead to 1914?

AK - Jeff

I mean I understand the arguments they make - the calculations they lay out. I did it for 40 years myself as a witness.

My question is a simple one - What 'proof' can the witnesses use to support the entire idea of converting a scripture about the 'Gentile Times', and a kings' insanity that lasted for 7 literal years into 2520 years? The entire idea seems ludicrous to me after having been away from the mental institution called Jehovah's witnesses for about three years now.

Even if 607 was fixed in stone - and there was anything to the childish efforts to convert the whole Nebuchanezzar incident into a 2520 year fulfillment of prophecy - 1914 has proven to be false anyway. What king would wait for nearly a hundred years after his silent enthronement to act?

Isn't the whole thing just a foolish notion to begin with? Why did Jesus say no one would know the day and hour if all we had to do was get a smart fellow like Russell or Rutherford to put the pencil to paper and decipher some hidden codes in the Bible.

I'm tired and headed to bed in a bit- but doesn't the entire matter seem just stupid and unworthy almost of real consideration?

Just my opinion - and no discredit to AlanF, AS, and other very fine and careful students of the matter. At one point I was interested and concerned with it too - I just really wonder if there is any point to it anyway. Even if 607 is right - we know that JW's were never right about anything else anyway - so they certainly did not make a proper conversion of the Gentile times and end it correctly, did they.? History has essensially proven that by now hasn't it?

Sorry for the rant - just seems like we are repeatedly trying to disprove something that has no basis to begin with. May we be tossing pearls into the swinepit?

Jeff

ozziepost

G'day Jeff,

I think you're right in what you say i.e. even if 607 were right (which it isn't) where's the link to 1914 - just a whole lot of conjecturing.

Still, the point is that 607 isn't right and on that hangs the WTS.

Enjoy your sleep, mate.

Cheers, Ozzie

JosephMalik

so they certainly did not make a proper conversion of the Gentile times and end it correctly, did they.? History has essensially proven that by now hasn't it?

Jeff,

You are correct. All this material on history and what for? According to scripture the Gentile Times began with sin and end when our Lord returns once again to rule. No real difference between the Gentile Times and the wheat and weeds, or sheep and goats or the great tribulation. Basically they reflect what is said in the prophecy about the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. Just different words and ways to describe this prophecy. Nothing to it really and we do not have to run all over the Bible and dwell on obscure texts to prove it. But they drown you in history, clay tablets, and interpretation of such events and tablets to keep you all confused.

And then there is this invisible presence thingy they keep teaching. That is another problem area. The scriptures promise that our Lord will return once again visibly here on earth, in the flesh to rule in his Kingdom. What they do not understand yet is the Nations, the sheep that will also be in this Kingdom with Him along with his angels (holy ones) will not yet have attained justification. So the scriptures put it this way in the Psalms: 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. This is the purpose of the Kingdom and what it will accomplish when such enemies accept the truth and attain justification themselves. Why else would you need a kingdom of Priests at such a time? The sign, that time in history when this is all about to occur does not describe a presence but describes history just prior to such presence and Kingdom rule.

Joseph

vitty

Why would God want to play games with his children, that could lead to their deaths???? Trying to decipher a bible code is crazy. Jws are so quick to ridicule others for doing the same thing that they do.

I remember when I was having a study in the live forever book and we came across the "tree" and being totally lost. The sister said you will understand it in time its like jigsaw puzzle that all fits together.

I thought she was so clever and spirtual and couldnt wait to be like her

AK - Jeff

By the way - I hope no one interprets this little rant of mine as lack of appreciation for those who can so deftly disprove the WTS's position on this subject. Not at all.

In fact C O Jonnson's book was one of the first I read after Franz's and thought it was amazing in it's clarity of the matter.

G'Day Ozzie.

JosephMalik - I agree with your points there.

Vitty said;

Why would God want to play games with his children, that could lead to their deaths???? ; ; Trying to decipher a bible code is crazy. ; Jws are so quick to ridicule others for doing the same thing that they do. ;

Exactly! If it was crucial to life, why not make it simple and clear? Like 'after the Temple is destroyed I will allow men to rule for 2520 years. Then the King shall stand in his invisible Kingdom....'.

Jeff [of the awake and feeling a little less grumpy class]

drew sagan

This is the part where their dogma really falls apart in my opinion. For all of the 607/587 data that is debated, much of the application and interpretation of the prophecy. In fact is that the Watchtower has only ever given VERY WEAK evidence as to why the dream in Daniel 4 even has a second meaning at all. This is the part in the Gentile Times books that most critics will never take the time to refute. In fact all of the reasons why they feel the dream should have a second meaning prove one major thing in itself, that nowhere in the Bible is there an actual link between Daneil 4 and the gentile times. To this day I have not seen a good reason for why they should be connected. Challenge a JW to use ONLY THE BIBLE as a referance as to why this dream has two fullfillments, it just can't be done.

Y I Man

I only joined this Forum yesterday and I never realised all this about the 607 & 1914 stuff. I did a bit of research on the net today about C T Russell, the pyramid, freemasons etc etc, and my eyes have really been opened.

I just wish I knew of this when I was going the meetings to slap it in the Elders' faces.

Gavin

peacefulpete

The expression "times of the Gentiles" was part of a minor editorial gloss by the author of Luke writing circa 90-130 CE. (Luke 21:24) His primary sources, Mark and Matthew do not even have a parallel expression. Rather funny for such a supposed keystone doctrine. (what ever happened to WTS policy of requiring 2-3 witnesses?) The author of Luke was likely referring to the actual duration of the initial seige and attacks of 66-70 CE.

The 'times of the Gentiles' being fullfilled (i.e. completed) in verse 24 should be understood in context as the "days of vegence..to fullfill all that is written" from verse 22. The writer makes no indication that a reversal of fortune would take place after this 'time of vegence', that is a modern Adventist invention imposed upon the text to make it appear to be a reference to future events.

This expression "times of the Gentiles" has been lifted from context and given a life of its own, going way beyond the intention of the author.

thirdwitness

Answer found here.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118775/1.ashx

Let's assume 607 correct.... How can they prove that lead to 1914?

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